CK5 - The Full-Size GM Off Road Community

I'm diving into the roll cage part of my project this spring and I need to know if this pipe will be strong enough. It's avalable in 1-3/4" diameter with a .185" wall thickness (I think) and it's about half the price of DOM and slightly less than HREW tubing. I have done some research on cage design and I plan on a lot of triangulation along with tying it into the body mount bushings. I believe I have heard of some people using schedule 40 pipe but I'm not sure about it. I doubt I'll ever roll my rig, but if I do I know the stock half cab will not be enough. I'm open to any kind of suggestions on how I can make this pipe work for a safe roll cage. Thanks guys! /forums/images/graemlins/bow.gif

BTW If the post doesn't catch anyones attention I won't cry myself to sleep if it gets moved to another forum. /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif

I think most people are going to say no. I guess it all depends on your piece of mind. I have people tell me that my HREW tubing was not a good choice and I've seen Schedule 80 pipe hold up fine to multiple rollovers. I would at least go with Schedule 80. That is what my side armor is made out of and it has held up pretty well.

What is the difference between schedule 40 and schedule 80 pipe? I'm pretty sure the 40 pipe has .185 wall thickness, so does that mean the 80 pipe has a thicker wall? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

First off, pipe is generally frowned upon for cage structure. The problem is that "pipe" is wide range of products. Could be anything from seamless steel pipe to cast iron pipe. My grandad builds a lot of stuff from he calls "Double Walled (Sched 80) Black Iron Pipe". Which isn't iron at all, it's steel. Wall thickness per Schedule changes with size. 12" Sched 40 pipe has a lot thicker wall than 2" Sched 40 pipe.

Generally only tubing is rated to carry structural loads. Pipe is rated for max operating pressure as some sort of conduit of water, steam, compressed air, oil, etc. While possible to extract an approximate structural strength from a pressure rating, it's not commonly done.

As a guideline the SCORE rule book calls for at least 1-3/4" x .120 wall steel tube in a cage structure for a vehicle the size of a K5. At some point in vehicle weight (8k lbs I think) they start requiring 2.0" x .120 wall.

If it is steel pipe and you can bend it wrinkle-free then it MAY be OK. Why not just get the stuff (tube) intended for the job?

As usual, ntsqd's post has it pretty much all summed up.

I'll only add 2 points.

To clarify on the "anything from seamless steel pipe to cast iron pipe" point. Even if it is "steel", there are SO many grades and it's not really clear on most. Much of what you buy as "pipe" also lacks real specs on metal content. In particular, rumor has it that much of the "common" pipe you find is built in Russia from random scrap and is never consistent, often brittle and with inconsistent wall thickness (off-center ID).

And you said yourself that pipe is only "slightly less than HREW tubing", so why is there even a question? There is a reason that HREW is considered the "entry point" or "lowest acceptable" material for cages by most people "in the know". The only time you see people pushing "pipe" for cages, it's generally because it's "cheaper". And they maintain that it's good enough not on engineering principles, but based on anecdotal evidence or "opinion". They also generally wind up with heavier cages by going thicker/larger to recoup the loss of material strength.

I'm not saying in any way that you can't build a pipe cage to hold up. I'm not saying that those who use pipe are "idiots" or anything of the sort. But when HREW is close in price, I would not even consider pipe as an alternative…

You guys have good points. In reality I was only looking at this as an option because of cost and avalability. The only close steel shop doesn't carry or can't get DOM or HREW tubing, just schedule 40 pipe /forums/images/graemlins/doah.gif I believe the pipe was somewhere around $8 for 10 feet. Way cheaper than tubing IIRC. /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif I haven't priced out tubing from any local places yet, just going by word of mouth. /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif

Without even hitting the points above, pipe is simply too heavy.

I think the biggest issue for me is this:

Have you ever picked up a 20' long piece of sched 40 pipe? Its freakin heavy. I cant imagine building a cage out of 100+' of it. Thats a pile of weight.
I dont know how the weight compares to HREW, I dunno what HREW even stands for, but I do know the piece of sched 40 pipe I have here is very heavy.

Mike

The way I have been taught is that pipe is for "POOP" pipe is ment to carry fluids,gases, it is not a structural metal.

HREW....hot rold electric welded you will notice that this tubing has a welded seam down the middle of it. Can be use as structural metal..ie roll cages

DOM....drawn over mandrel...no welded seam so its going to be stronger than HREW. does not have a place to split when you are bending a roll cage.

you can bend both pipe and tubing but they require different types of benders
tubing...JD2 type benders
pipe.... the orange pipe benders from harbor frieght

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

DOM is just HREW with more work done. It still has a welded seam, you just can't see it very well.

And the JD2 style benders also have pipe dies available.

I have used, and will continue to use 1.5" (thats 1.9" OD)sch 40, A53E pipe for roll cages on my own personal rigs, and rigs for anyone who requests it.

I have had good luck with this schedule and grade of pipe for offroad use.

One note that anyone bending seemed tubing should pay attention to... When possible, put the seem to the inside of the bend.

I think I read somewhere that you were using it which is why I asked this question. I think I may be able to get some 1-3/4" roll cage tubing from a friend who owns a fab. shop. I will most likely use 1-1/2" or 1-3/4" pipe for the rest. The pipe will be used mostly for bracing and mounting. The cab part of the cage will be made in something stronger/lighter. /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif

HREW, (hot rolled electric welded) is your best bet if you want to do it right structually and on a budget. I buy a 20 foot stick of 1.75 X .095 for 37$, it's cheaper tham 4130 DOM a little easer to bend, but structually safer than pipe. Keep in mind pipe is very soft.
Either way you go if you use something that has a seam in it make sure the seam is on the inside of the bend, this is very important. A nasty role over could split the seam if it's to the outside and become shrapnel :blush:

Dumb question: is "schedule 40 pipe" the standard black pipe you find in the hardware store for plumbing? Or, does it look just like tubing but is measured differently?

Dumb question: is "schedule 40 pipe" the standard black pipe you find in the <a href="http://www.srch-results.com/lm/rtl.asp?k=hardware%20store" onmouseover="window.status='hardware store'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">hardware store</a> for plumbing? Or, does it look just like tubing but is measured differently?

schedual 40 pipe is what you would find in the hardware store but most of the time the ends are already threaded. Because it's primary use is for plumbing or gas lines.
Pipe is measured by the inside diameter, the hole in the inside of the tubing and is either schedual 40 or 80. 80 being the heaver or thicker walled of the two.
Tubing is measured by the very outside diameter if the tubing and comes in various wall thicknesses. Example 1.75 X .125 wall, 1.75 is the out side diameter while .125 is how thick the wall is. therfore inside diameters of tubing, depending on wall size will vary.
Something to keep in mind when purchasing a bender, the dies for the bender will be drasticaly diffrent.

:surepal: pipe is for plumbers

Keep in mind pipe is very soft.


Some pipe is soft and some is hard...it all depends on what type of material is used in it. A53 and A106 are good for what we do... A53-A being probubly the best because the A106 is harder to find and there is no material streingth gain. These types of pipe have very similer material properties and seam type as the HREW that most people refer to...the material is just sized differnetly.

schedual 40 pipe is what you would find in the hardware store

Sch 40 is just the way that "Pipe" is measured. It has nothing to do with the material or tolerances.

Pipe is measured by the inside diameter

Nope its measured by the "Nominal Dia". The outside diameter actualy stays the same from the different thicknesses of pipe. Forinstance 1-1/2 has an OD of 1.900" and that stays the same for all the different Sch's. Then the ID changes: Sch40=1.610" Sch80=1.500" Sch160=1.338" and XX-Hvy=1.100"

black pipe

This is a common term used for "junk" pipe...but in reality is just refers to the coating put on alot of pipe. You can even get DOM and Square Tube with the Black coating on it.


There are alot of misconseptions and bad info running around about pipe.

I'm a pipe welder by trade and can say all the responses are totaly acurate. I use alot of "pipe" sch 40 and 80 in structural work too, the big problem being of course wieght. The general rule of thumb we use at work is simply all seams on the inside of whatever we are building, gussets help alot too. Seams on the inside looks better but more importantly protects the welded joint from direct damage. Wall thickness of pipe changes depending on schedual and pipe diameter. One thing to consider is unless you are racing, a cage built out-of sch-40 1.5" (2" OD) will hold your truck together, most rollovers are relativly slow and DOM tubing is engineering overkill if your not crashing at 85 mph. Your truck frame will come apart before your "pipe" cage will. The biggest problem I've seen with cages, both DOM and pipe is the fabrication is poor and the welding totaly crap. Don't use flux-core wire or 6010-13 rod they both lack ductility, use either dual-shield wire or preferably a 7018 series rod. Be careful about the "heat affected zone" not so critical on pipe but critical on tubing, too much heat and you can embritle the weld and the area around it.

I am using 1 1/2 sch40 hrew pipe. for my cage which is also the same thing as hrew 1.90x .145 tubing and cost 1.50 per foot. I wouldn't use anything less than .135 wall. thats what nhra and nmro require. I know alot use thinner and even someone post up a few about using 1.75x .095 not that is scary less waith but it isn't gonna hold up to 6000 lb blazer. just .02

How about using the stronger 1.75" DOM .120 for the main structure of the cage (hoops) and then using the HREW for the triangulation pieces that don't get bent? This would yield a safe strong cage a little cheaper than an all DOM cage wouldn't it? I need to build a cage for my rig soon, thinking this is how I might go. Hoops and halo DOM, the rest HREW...

??? Good idea ???

I did use some pipe for some armor, only 10 feet total, and man that stuff IS heavy. I would definitely not use pipe for my cage. My buddy used pipe from OSH on his scout for a roll bar, I DEFINITELY would not trust that with my life in that rig, it already weighs a ton. The pipe bends are wrinkled too, so basically IMO there is no strength there.

I'm a pipe welder by trade and can say all the responses are totaly acurate. I use alot of "pipe" sch 40 and 80 in structural work too, the big problem being of course wieght. The general rule of thumb we use at work is simply all seams on the inside of whatever we are building, gussets help alot too. Seams on the inside looks better but more importantly protects the welded joint from direct damage. Wall thickness of pipe changes depending on schedual and pipe diameter. One thing to consider is unless you are racing, a cage built out-of sch-40 1.5" (2" OD) will hold your truck together, most rollovers are relativly slow and DOM tubing is engineering overkill if your not crashing at 85 mph. Your truck frame will come apart before your "pipe" cage will. The biggest problem I've seen with cages, both DOM and pipe is the fabrication is poor and the welding totaly crap. Don't use flux-core wire or 6010-13 rod they both lack ductility, use either dual-shield wire or preferably a 7018 series rod. Be careful about the "heat affected zone" not so critical on pipe but critical on tubing, too much heat and you can embritle the weld and the area around it.
:bow: :bow: :wink1: :wink1:

I am using 1 1/2 sch40 hrew pipe. for my cage which is also the same thing as hrew 1.90x .145 tubing and cost 1.50 per foot. I wouldn't use anything less than .135 wall. thats what nhra and nmro require. I know alot use thinner and even someone post up a few about using 1.75x .095 not that is scary less waith but it isn't gonna hold up to 6000 lb blazer. just .02

Well, I've decided to go with pipe afterall (took me long enough!). It's 2.7 pounds per foot which IMHO is not that heavy when you're talking about 1.5" ID 1.9" OD material (.200 wall). It weighs less than a piece of 1/8" 2"x2" square tubing at 2.9 pounds per foot IIRC. For a 20' lenght at the local steel yard I'll pay $50 for pipe, it's much more for HREW or DOM at the nearest speed shop (next state over). I'm planning on using about 150' for my exocage and the small "bed" behind my cab. The, roughly, 400 pounds of weight isn't that much of a concern to me since I've removed so much more material from my rig I actually lost traction in the rear. I would estimate that my rig weighs under 5,000 pounds as is (no bed, no doors, skinned fenders, no bumpers and no interior) so a little extra weight shouldn't hurt too much.

:rolleyes: Wadya think?

Well, I've decided to go with pipe afterall (took me long enough!). It's 2.7 pounds per foot which IMHO is not that heavy when you're talking about 1.5" ID 1.9" OD material (.200 wall). It weighs less than a piece of 1/8" 2"x2" square tubing at 2.9 pounds per foot IIRC. For a 20' lenght at the local steel yard I'll pay $50 for pipe, it's much more for HREW or DOM at the nearest speed shop (next state over). I'm planning on using about 150' for my exocage and the small "bed" behind my cab. The, roughly, 400 pounds of weight isn't that much of a concern to me since I've removed so much more material from my rig I actually lost traction in the rear. I would estimate that my rig weighs under 5,000 pounds as is (no bed, no doors, skinned fenders, no bumpers and no interior) so a little extra weight shouldn't hurt too much.

:rolleyes: Wadya think?

I say DO IT!!! It's so funny to read all the BS of pipe vs. DOM vs. this and that. Half of the so claimed experts don't even have a cage and believe everything that is on the net. Guys have been building cages out of pipe for years running roundy round cars. Hell we run pipe in ours and it took a pretty severe roll last year with no issues. Hell you can find plenty of pics on the net of DOM cage failures. What it comes down to is design more then anything. We run full size rigs so I really don't think an extra 25 or so pounds is going to matter much. Hell once you have it built and painted 99.9% of the people will not have any clue if it is pipe or tube. Now having said that, my cage is DOM but the only reason it is not pipe is because I got my DOM for $2.27 per foot because I put a deal together with 2 other people and we got over 800 feet.

hmmm...

My two cents:
What is a roll cage for? It's to keep you safe in case of a roll-over/side. It's to also stiffen up the chassis to prevent flex. As far as safety goes, my brown a$$ is worth using material that is properly designed to deal with the stresses put on the rig. Granted, I've rolled in a road racer at over 120 MPH which convinced me of this.
Just remember, besides the stiffening of the chassis, the roll cage is a waste of money and unnecessary weight UNTIL you roll (on your side, on your roof, down a cliff, etc) then as you're tumbling your praying it holds together! And in my case you soil yourself after it's over :eek1: !!

My two cents:
What is a roll cage for? It's to keep you safe in case of a roll-over/side. It's to also stiffen up the chassis to prevent flex. As far as safety goes, my brown a$$ is worth using material that is properly designed to deal with the stresses put on the rig. Granted, I've rolled in a road racer at over 120 MPH which convinced me of this.
Just remember, besides the stiffening of the chassis, the roll cage is a waste of money and unnecessary weight UNTIL you roll (on your side, on your roof, down a cliff, etc) then as you're tumbling your praying it holds together! And in my case you soil yourself after it's over :eek1: !!

My two cents:
What is a roll cage for? It's to keep you safe in case of a roll-over/side. It's to also stiffen up the chassis to prevent flex. As far as safety goes, my brown a$$ is worth using material that is properly designed to deal with the stresses put on the rig. Granted, I've rolled in a road racer at over 120 MPH which convinced me of this.
Just remember, besides the stiffening of the chassis, the roll cage is a waste of money and unnecessary weight UNTIL you roll (on your side, on your roof, down a cliff, etc) then as you're tumbling your praying it holds together! And in my case you soil yourself after it's over :eek1: !!

The problem with pipe is that there is a huge range of what is called pipe. Some of it has NO business being anything but plumbing. Other of it is probably suitable.

On the other hand all Tube is sold as structural, unlike pipe. With tube you know what you're getting. With "pipe"?

The problem with pipe is that there is a huge range of what is called pipe. Some of it has NO business being anything but plumbing. Other of it is probably suitable.

On the other hand all Tube is sold as structural, unlike pipe. With tube you know what you're getting. With "pipe"?

The pipe I'm purchasing is "structural grade schedule 40" according to the listing I read from the supplier. They sell building material so I'm assuming that the pipe they use is higher quality than what you would get at home depot... With that in mind, I'm putting a cage on my rig for added rigidity in the frame (body has been solidly connected to the frame at 6 points to the rectangular steel rockers). I'm also building my bumper and a bed from it which will be connected directly to the frame. The bumper is going to support the radiator and will be welded to the winch mount that is bolted to the front of the frame. The bed will be solidly welded to the frame at 8 different points. All together I will have 18 points of cage connected to the frame plus the original 6 body mounts that the pickup cab had originally. I think that should be plenty stiff. :thumb:

A rough rendering of what I had in mind...

http://coloradok5.com/photos/data/500/exo.JPG

And the front...

http://coloradok5.com/photos/data/500/exo2.JPG

not to steal the thread but I've got access to 1.5" and 2" Sch 40 304 Stainless Steel. Any opinions on making a single roll bar with it?

I finally got around to the bed portion of this cage idea. Here's a link.
http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207180
And a few pictures. Linked to my webshots.
http://thumb19.webshots.net/t/57/457/4/52/59/2320452590100714699NdEHmr_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2320452590100714699NdEHmr)
http://thumb19.webshots.net/t/57/457/2/44/82/2304244820100714699hQaJCG_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2304244820100714699hQaJCG)

SCORE rules are 2" .120 wall 4130 seamless or 1018 DOM for anything 4000lbs. and up just so you know. 1.75" .120 wall for 3000-3999lbs.

DOM is just HREW with more work done. It still has a welded seam, you just can't see it very well.

I know this is really old but, the above statement is not true. HREW is HOT rolled electric welded tibing. DOM is drawn over mandrel. it is essentially COLD rolled. DOM is also more consistent in wall thickness then HREW.

From the link construction article on pirate:

Material ------------------------------------------------------Yield Strength (psi)

ASTM Grade 53 Pipe ----------------------------------------------- 30,000

1020 ERW tube (more commonly known as HREW) --------------------40,000

1020 DOM ----------------------------------------------------------70,000

4130 Cr-Mo ---------------------------------------------------------90,000

4340 Cr-Mo ---------------------------------------------------------120,000


The site that this info came from, and lots of good reading on why DOM is the right choice:

http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Links/


DOM isn't that expensive, there really should be no lesser alternative :dunno:

Seriously, the pipe's yield strength is a lot closer to most aluminums than it is to DOM 1020 cold rolled steel. Would you build a cage out of aluminum?

Don't forget that chromoly steel is more complicated to weld than other steel.

Chas: Good point on the difference in HREW. Should have been more specific, but my main point was that DOM is (C)REW.

383: I'm no engineer, but from what I understand, that has little bearing on safety. It just means that DOM will withstand more without permanent deformation. So yes, a DOM cage will hold up better to beating, and that makes it better for a buggy and links(!!! re: the article). But yield has MUCH less impact on safety (pun intended) for a "I don't plan to roll it, but just in case." cage. In a properly designed cage, other properties, properties that are not much different between HREW, CREW and DOM are more important. So, they provide very similar safety. The difference in yield just means that HREW will be more likely to need repair after a less violent impact. Bottom line, you can't look at a single property like "yield" and declare a clear winner. Yes, DOM is "better", but for the average cage, HREW/CREW/DOM is fine and more a matter of choice and availability (IMO). Pipe is a different matter all together, as already covered.

That is my understanding from listening to engineers, Dan and others could put numbers to it and make a more compelling (and I think the same?) point...

Chas: Good point on the difference in HREW. Thanks.

But yield has MUCH less impact on safety (pun intended) for a "I don't plan to roll it, but just in case." cage.

so if I PLAN to roll it then I should definitley have DOM right? I'm asking seriously. I have only been pricing DOM since no one seems to carry the HREW.

some of the guys in my area are running DOM and some are running pipe. seems like the guys running DOM all have nice trucks that they built with a nice budget. they enjoy wheeling but don't do anything that would come close to causing a violent roll. the guys running pipe have beaters that they wheel the piss out of.

I know that doesn't mean anything but if guys are getting away with pipe should I be able to get away with HREW. I'm the guy on the trail that will try any line. FOR MUD flipped his truck last time out and I swore I could make it. everyone else thought it was a bad idea.:rolleyes:

Out of curiosity, what are the prices you're being quoted for DOM? The 1-1/2" I.D. ASTM 53 pipe I use is under $50 for 22'. I hear tube is close to $3-$4 per foot.

Out of curiosity, what are the prices you're being quoted for DOM? The 1-1/2" I.D. ASTM 53 pipe I use is under $50 for 22'. I hear tube is close to $3-$4 per foot.

thats what I have been getting for 1.75 x .120 wall. for the dollar foot more its not worth going with pipe.

I think it cost me $2.18 per foot. The pipe is about 1.8" O.D. which means its got a .150 wall thickness.

I've also noticed that a lot of "beaters" use pipe, I think the reasoning behind that is because $1-$2 per foot is a lot when you figure it adds up to about $200-$300 by the time the rig is complete. I know $200-$300 for me is a lot of money, actually it's enough for me to finish my cage work, then get a couple spare driveshafts and an electric fan setup from a junk yard. :D

Chas: That's not a bad way to look at it I suppose. My truggy has never been in a really hard roll, but I've had to section it twice to remove bent tubes and it has one on it now that's been there for a while (over the front right tire) and I just haven't done anything about it. In a hard roll, anything is going to get beat and likely need fixing, but DOM would likely have held up better than my HREW cage.

Pipe is another matter, lots of different grades. But the more common pipe we see used out here is both heavier than 0.120 wall (typical HREW/DOM is 1.75x0.120) AND a seems to be a "stiffer" (technical term) alloy. So where mine dents/bends, the pipe just slides. HOWEVER, that pipe is more brittle. You don't ever seen HREW/DOM fracture. It's bend till no tomorrow, but not fracture. I've seen it happen to pipe, though never catestrophically (i.e. it split, not broke). It would really suck if a hard roll fractured that b-pillar and sent the sharp end through your side...

In the end, we each have to decide for ourselves based on our use, comfort, and budget. HREW works for me, and I've never had really had any second thoughts about whether it was the right choice. If I was more "hard core", my HREW cage would probably be trashed and I would be running a DOM by now. At the same time, Brook and others that are certainly among the "hard core" crowd successfully run pipe (of known grade, NOT HOME IMPROVEMENT big box grade!!!!).

Yer' makes yer' choice, and yer' take yer' chances... ARghhh!

good points Baddog. :waytogo: I completely forgot that pipe fractures. I should know that, I used to work construction. whenever we were taking out pipe we would just smash the fittings. it was quicker then cutting it out.

I'm not worried about sliding along things or even flopping it. the cage will only be there to protect me in a roll that would be life threatening if the cage wasn't there. :crazy: Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

383: I'm no engineer, but from what I understand, that has little bearing on safety. It just means that DOM will withstand more without permanent deformation. So yes, a DOM cage will hold up better to beating, and that makes it better for a buggy and links(!!! re: the article). But yield has MUCH less impact on safety (pun intended) for a "I don't plan to roll it, but just in case." cage. In a properly designed cage, other properties, properties that are not much different between HREW, CREW and DOM are more important. So, they provide very similar safety. The difference in yield just means that HREW will be more likely to need repair after a less violent impact. Bottom line, you can't look at a single property like "yield" and declare a clear winner. Yes, DOM is "better", but for the average cage, HREW/CREW/DOM is fine and more a matter of choice and availability (IMO). Pipe is a different matter all together, as already covered.

I mostly agree with you, but just imagine a really hard roll. The DOM cage might be badly smashed (and in need of major repair/replacement) but did its job. As for the pipe cage, well, you see where I'm going.

This, as with any info you get on the net, should be taken with a grain of salt. This site (and this forum specifically) isn't here to tell you how to build your truck, its here to show you things/info you may not have seen elsewhere and allow you to make a decision based on it. My .02

"Mostly true"? What's not true? Or did you mean "I mostly agree." Two very different things...

Yep, that's why I added my last line about pipe.

Think of it this way. A cage to make a crash "survivable" is one goal with a given set of reasonable solutions. Having a cage to bash repeatedly with minimal maintenance is quite another with a smaller subset of viable solutions.

Also agree on your second paragraph, something I've said myself many times. What's right for me, is not for someone else. It's been said that Brook (haven't heard from him in ages, wonder if he still comes around?) is something of a "poster child" for pipe cages. He's much harder on his that I am on mine and it seems to have held up fine. There was a guy on PBB that also strongly supported pipe cages, and built a nice rig from pipe. At the same time, even with that testimony from someone I respect, I wouldn't consider building a "pipe cage" (certs or not), nor would I be comfortable recommending one. In a similar vein, other folks I respect (Robert for one) have held lively debates with me over the merits of DOM vs H/CREW. Lots of good arguements and supporting evidence on all sides.

The main point is to educate yourself as well as you can and make an informed decision based on YOUR understanding and needs. With the web in general, or a site this big, you can pretty much find someone supporting just about any possible alternative. Doesn't mean it's right for you just because it worked for them, but that also does not invalidate their choice...

"Mostly true"? What's not true? Or did you mean "I mostly agree." Two very different things...

Fixed :doah:

And I agree with 'ya :thumb:

With the web in general, or a site this big, you can pretty much find someone supporting just about any possible alternative. Doesn't mean it's right for you just because it worked for them, but that also does not invalidate their choice...

Excellent statement there.

I also agree that cages are meant to help you survive a roll. I didn't build mine to survive a roll then do it all over again the next weekend in the same rig with no damage. If mine rolls I just want to be safe that one time, I figure the body will be pretty trashed by then and I'll be building a buggy at that point anyways. :D

If I were to use pipe I would have the main hope of of DOM still.

If I were to use pipe I would have the main hope of of DOM still.

that might create more problems. There is no way to predict how the welds between the pipe and DOM would hold up in a roll. I would think that if you are going to use pipe then you should do it all in pipe.

ok I will chim in as I have started threads about this subject and posted in many too. I use these few rules in order to build what I think is a very quailty cage.

1= safety for my family
2= purpose of the rig
3= weight of the rig, IE: fully loaded with people, fuel, gear, etc
4= survivability of a BAD roll, cage design is CRITICAL HERE
5= low maintenence

1 safety= nothing is more important then my family. so keeping them safe is paramount and superceeds all. yes on hard core runs my family might not even go, probably just a guy trip but if they do I want my rig as safe as possible.

2 purpose of rig= I am building a hard core capable trail rig that still will be street legal (realitivly legal :D ) if I never use it to its capibility so what, but I plan on it, so a bad roll will be inevatable at some point.

3 weight= probably in the 6000+ lb range.

4 survivabilty AND design= I will build it to handle a BAD roll over, wheather it be a hard flop to a multiple roll. most tires up are just soft flops on the side but multi rolls happen when you dont expect it....then its too late to go back and build a better cage.

5 low maintence= I dont want to have to section tubes out or atleast not as often as I would using lesser quality tube/pipe.


My personal choice is nothing less then DOM period. I dont care about cost. yes it IS very expensive but it is what it is. I would take a pipe cage ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over nothing at all if I was going to go wheelin, especially on a tough trail.

on a budget the minimum should be HREW. if you cant get it at the local steel place, save some more money to pay for shipping, order it and have it delivered.

CROMOLY cages are for the high end racing rock rigs or baja type trucks. if you can afford it and can weld it properly, have at it but I cant.


I prefer to build overkill, I dont like to build what is probably suficient, I want to KNOW its going to hold up to those "not intended for incidents" so for me its 1026 DOM. for my trail rig.

for my daily driver and some times off roaded suburban it will be HREW since it wont see the kinda of trails my blazer will see.

that might create more problems. There is no way to predict how the welds between the pipe and DOM would hold up in a roll. I would think that if you are going to use pipe then you should do it all in pipe.along these lines, would it be ok to mix and match DOM and HREW tubing?

I currently have the S&W 6-point DOM cage in my truck, I plan on adding some gussets, but nothing elaborate. Where I wheel, there are lots of trees and the trails are tight. I dont want my rig to look like a raisen after a couple runs so I am planning on adding an exocage

I was thinking of using DOM for the A-pillar and B-pillar halos and the rest of the cage/front bumper/tubular back-half would be HREW. Any thoughts on this?

along these lines, would it be ok to mix and match DOM and HREW tubing?

I currently have the S&W 6-point DOM cage in my truck, I plan on adding some gussets, but nothing elaborate. Where I wheel, there are lots of trees and the trails are tight. I dont want my rig to look like a raisen after a couple runs so I am planning on adding an exocage

I was thinking of using DOM for the A-pillar and B-pillar halos and the rest of the cage/front bumper/tubular back-half would be HREW. Any thoughts on this?

Do it :thumb:

I would do it also. DOM and HREW are very close in dimensions. that would save you a lot of money. PIPE is just to inconsistent. if you smack a pipe with a hammer hard enough it will crack. DOM and HREW will both bend.

cool beans! my brother and I are going to buy a tubing bender probably this winter or next spring. He's also planning an exocage for his crewcab trail rig

Exo is a whole different (off) topic, but I won't go down that road except to say I have no use for them.

On combining DOM and HREW, I see no reason not to do so.

From the link construction article on pirate:

Material ------------------------------------------------------Yield Strength (psi)

ASTM Grade 53 Pipe ----------------------------------------------- 30,000

1020 ERW tube (more commonly known as HREW) --------------------40,000

1020 DOM ----------------------------------------------------------70,000

4130 Cr-Mo ---------------------------------------------------------90,000

4340 Cr-Mo ---------------------------------------------------------120,000


The site that this info came from, and lots of good reading on why DOM is the right choice:

http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Links/


DOM isn't that expensive, there really should be no lesser alternative :dunno:

Seriously, the pipe's yield strength is a lot closer to most aluminums than it is to DOM 1020 cold rolled steel. Would you build a cage out of aluminum?

Don't forget that chromoly steel is more complicated to weld than other steel.
anyone know what type of loading these yield numbers are for? tension, compression, lateral... etc???

Tension