CK5 Forums




PDA

View Full Version : TPI Guys! 305tpi system on a 350 engine


primerk5
03-15-2007, 06:06 AM
Ok, I just got a wiring harness from an 88 iroc to go with my Tpi system that I have. For now I just want to use the 305 injectors and the 305 ECU I already have. What will this do? Will it run bad? A friend of mine said that it won't have as much top end power.

resurrected_jimmy
03-15-2007, 07:54 AM
It will probably run allright. If the TPI systems are like the TBI systems for 305/350 then all you need is a new chip for the ECU

dyeager535
03-15-2007, 08:30 AM
You may run the engine lean to the point of destruction.

TPI doesn't have a way to keep your engine "safe" in certain conditions (open loop, and to a point acceleration or heavy loads) because it isn't watching the air/fuel ratio. That's preprogrammed in for a 305 in your case.

Spark control, knock retard, injectors, and programming are ALL different for a 305 than a 350, that should tell you something.

Not saying it won't work, but 383's with 350 injection stuff HAVE detonated to death, and have a look at the before/after AF ratio from burt4x4's dyno run:

http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163920&highlight=dyno

His "before" AFR is exactly what happens when you run a poorly tuned injection setup on the wrong motor, IE 305 injection stuff on a 350. Believe me, you will *think* it runs great. But the before/after numbers there prove otherwise, and his comment was that it ran good before!

You can buy Ford Motorsport injectors off Summit for about $250, but you'll still need the other components correct to run right.

Don't forget, a 305 and 350 have entirely different timing requirements and knock signature, and that is ALL dealt with via the ECM (PROM actually) and ESC/knock sensor setup.

primerk5
03-15-2007, 10:15 AM
dern it, Looks like 350 injectors and prom here I come!

primerk5
03-15-2007, 12:24 PM
What might happen if I change the prom and not the injectors?

thedrip
03-15-2007, 12:37 PM
It still runs the chance of going lean. Also the 305 TPI is slightly different from the 350 TPI unit, the runners are sized slightly differently. a 305TPI on a 350TPI just won't make power above 4000-4500 rpm, no matter what prom/injectors you have. Not that a stock 350 makes a whole lot over 4500 anyway.

dyeager535
03-15-2007, 12:47 PM
You would be just as bad off...the injectors still only flow what they are rated, (19lb/hr for 305, 22lb/hr for 350, stock) so it gets a little complicated.

Say GM figured for the 350 that at 22lb/hr, idle, the injector needs to stay open for 1 millisecond. (making up numbers here, but in practice this is how it works) Well, if GM makes a proportionally smaller injector (19lb/hr) and puts it on a smaller engine, the amount of "on" time for the injector does not need to change. So the injector flow rate hasn't changed, and unless the PROM keeps the injector open longer (which wouldn't be necessary with larger injectors, which is why they run them) the amount of fuel won't change, at least not significantly.

The only way to "artificially" change the amount of fuel the injector flows is to crank up the fuel pressure. But fuel pressure is a global change in the system. It affects everything, closed and open loop, and unless the PROM is changed to use the higher fuel pressure/additional fuel delivery to calculate everything, the calibration is still going to be wrong. It may be ok in some spots, lean in others, rich in another, or rich all over, etc. No way you can possibly know except watch what the ECm is doing by datalogging/dyno time.

You see that on Burt4x4's motor. AFR was about 14.7:1 off idle, but went super lean very quickly, and stayed there.

If you plan on keeping the setup, just save up for the new injectors, tuning stuff, and do it right the first time. I had two bad injectors when I finally replaced mine, and without spending money on having them tested, there'd be no way to know if they were working correctly.

You've already got the wrong injectors, just replace them with brand new ones, that will work for your intended application. It's better to go too big than too small, as long as you aren't wildly over on the lb/hr rating, they can be controlled via PROM tuning. The bigger they get the harder they are to accurately control, especially if the engine can't use the added flow.

305 hardware (runners/intake/plenum) is no different than the 350 hardware. This is why TPI is a bit of a dog on anything larger than the 305, because that's what the setup was designed for.

primerk5
03-15-2007, 01:01 PM
You would be just as bad off...the injectors still only flow what they are rated, (19lb/hr for 305, 22lb/hr for 350, stock) so it gets a little complicated.

Say GM figured for the 350 that at 22lb/hr, idle, the injector needs to stay open for 1 millisecond. (making up numbers here, but in practice this is how it works) Well, if GM makes a proportionally smaller injector (19lb/hr) and puts it on a smaller engine, the amount of "on" time for the injector does not need to change. So the injector flow rate hasn't changed, and unless the PROM keeps the injector open longer (which wouldn't be necessary with larger injectors, which is why they run them) the amount of fuel won't change, at least not significantly.

The only way to "artificially" change the amount of fuel the injector flows is to crank up the fuel pressure. But fuel pressure is a global change in the system. It affects everything, closed and open loop, and unless the PROM is changed to use the higher fuel pressure/additional fuel delivery to calculate everything, the calibration is still going to be wrong. It may be ok in some spots, lean in others, rich in another, or rich all over, etc. No way you can possibly know except watch what the ECm is doing by datalogging/dyno time.

You see that on Burt4x4's motor. AFR was about 14.7:1 off idle, but went super lean very quickly, and stayed there.

If you plan on keeping the setup, just save up for the new injectors, tuning stuff, and do it right the first time. I had two bad injectors when I finally replaced mine, and without spending money on having them tested, there'd be no way to know if they were working correctly.

You've already got the wrong injectors, just replace them with brand new ones, that will work for your intended application. It's better to go too big than too small, as long as you aren't wildly over on the lb/hr rating, they can be controlled via PROM tuning. The bigger they get the harder they are to accurately control, especially if the engine can't use the added flow.

305 hardware (runners/intake/plenum) is no different than the 350 hardware. This is why TPI is a bit of a dog on anything larger than the 305, because that's what the setup was designed for.

I really appreciate all of your guys input. I'm gonna get the stock replacement 5.7 injectors just so everything is correct. When I first got all of this stuff the proms were everywhere brand new on E-bay now I don't see them Guess I'll have to watch for a little while. They were about 75 bucks +shipping.

Thanks again.

Blazer79
03-15-2007, 01:06 PM
What might happen if I change the prom and not the injectors?

I just finished swapping a 350 into my 305 camaro and changed from MAF to MAP as well. I used f*rd EVO 24# injectors. I'm starting to learn what to change when burning my own chips. One of the constants is the injector size, so theorically you can use the 305 injectors if you put 19# in this field. The computer would then adjust the pulse width accordingly. The thing is, I don't think the 19# injectors from the 305 can handle such a large pulse width. Others have claimed to have accomplished this by increasing fuel pressure and making the computer think it has 24# injectors. Check out http://www.thirdgen.org (http://www.thirdgen.org/) for more info on TPI.

dyeager535
03-15-2007, 01:12 PM
I think you'll find the stock 350 injectors are probably a lot more expensive than the Ford ones.

Ford ones are what I've got, (except 24lb/hr, not 22) for the price they can't be beat. I wouldn't even contemplate used injectors unless they are very low mileage and that can be proven.

Stay away from Accel injectors. Read up on those at thirdgen if you wish. :)

twodollars
03-15-2007, 03:56 PM
For new, the ford's are the way to go. I also just picked up a set of GTO injectors that worked out to about 24lb. They fit with a little massaging, and work fine. Whatever you do, just start with the fuel pressure set high to protect your engine at WOT, and then start going down.

primerk5
03-15-2007, 06:49 PM
Ok, I'm going to do some research on the Ford injectors. What are the chances that the injectors out of a caprice classic wagon (TPI non runner type) are the same. I crossed referenced the part numbers and they aren't. I'm beginning to think that the difference is just the amount of fuel flow/pressure. Especially since the one guy said he used GTO injectors. I can get an intake that has them in it for 20 bucks. But then again you don't know if they are any good or not. I'm definatly changing them now. Just don't know what to.

Heres a new question.

I just bought my wiring harness off e-bay. Its supposed to be in really good shape. I'm planning on retrofitting a stock harness out of a 88 I-Roc to my truck. I have a few books on doing TPI swaps. Of course they all suggest to buy the painless kit. I just could use that money elsewhere on my truck.

How many of you guys have used a stock car harness. Was it difficult. What was the setbacks??

Thanks again.

dyeager535
03-15-2007, 07:04 PM
I've got a car harness. Whatever year the setup is you are transplanting, buy the wiring and service manual. (either new helms, $$$, or find one on ebay, hint: search for firebird/pontiac instead of camaro/chevrolet)

The harness is daunting when you first look at it, the wiring manual will make your life SO much easier. IIRC in the tech section (electrical?) of thirdgen.org there are the '85 and '86 wiring manuals. Harder to deal with than the manual, but useable. GM stayed pretty similar from '86-89 on the TPI setups wiring-wise.

Forget Painless. Some have no problems, and yet I still see some stupid mistakes made in the construction of their harnesses. For the price they should be identical to the GM stuff, so you can use the factory service/wiring manuals.

The problem with some of the injectors is the length and the way they lock to the fuel rail. The stock ones and Fords are the ONLY ones I'm aware of that are essentially "bolt-in".

Same username on thirdgen, I did a ford injector tech thread with some measurements and so on. Probably have the part number (although you'll want 22lb/hr unless you intend to do some mods to the motor from stock) and you can find the o-ring kit PN on thirdgen.org as well.

Don't know when GM changed the fuel pressure, if ever. I'll say it one more time: Unless you plan to spend the $75+ to have used injectors tested, don't waste your money on them. Almost halfway to new Ford ones if used ones cost you even $20.

Try to save money now, spend it later. And spend more time. You get the setup together with used injectors, it doesn't run right, or at all. Is it because of the injectors that you don't know for certain are good?

primerk5
03-15-2007, 07:29 PM
What would the ford injectors have come in originally?(make/model/year) I just found out a friend of mine has a connection/child hood friend that is an fuel injector engineer at some place where they make injectors. Maybe able to get them even cheaper. Though, His friend said that his company Dosen't list them anymore for the model I have. He said he needs to look at the design to see what he can find in comparison. If there is something else that might work I want to tell him to look for that also. Thats why I was wondering what model ford would have gotten those injectors you'r telling me about.

primerk5
03-15-2007, 07:35 PM
BTW. The price on those injectors has gone up 309.95 now at summit.

They'll be what stock GM replacements are soon. HAHA

Russell
03-15-2007, 09:13 PM
Ford SHO V6s use 22 lb/h pink top SVO injectors :)

dyeager535
03-16-2007, 09:15 AM
I don't know that the Ford injectors being used by TPI guys were ever original to ANY vehicle. They fit Ford vehicles as well, I just don't think they were installed by the factory in any.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tech-general-engine/400871-ford-fms-svo-injector.html

They may eventually be as expensive as GM replacements if they keep going up in price!

54inches
03-16-2007, 09:24 AM
It still runs the chance of going lean. Also the 305 TPI is slightly different from the 350 TPI unit, the runners are sized slightly differently. a 305TPI on a 350TPI just won't make power above 4000-4500 rpm, no matter what prom/injectors you have. Not that a stock 350 makes a whole lot over 4500 anyway.

The 305 and 350 tpi are EXACTLY the same.

When I had my Camaro and a Vette. system, I checked both systems and they are exactly the same. When you order runners from GM they are the same. The injectors are different on some years, as are the systems, MAF/Speed Density and 90-92 do NOT have an 9th injector. My 305 was a 92.

I had the uppers and lowers ported and basically cleaned up, the TB gasket matched and cleaned up, had the MAT sensor moved closer to the front of the air intake, and added a Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator.

I slapped my 305 TPI system and a built 350 with Al. Vette heads and it ran like a scalded dog.

Now I never changed the ecm/chip or the injectors. I think I had a ton of power left and injectors should have been my next upgrade.

.02

primerk5
03-16-2007, 09:43 AM
I had the uppers and lowers ported and basically cleaned up, the TB gasket matched and cleaned up, had the MAT sensor moved closer to the front of the air intake, and added a Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator.

I slapped my 305 TPI system and a built 350 with Al. Vette heads and it ran like a scalded dog.

Now I never changed the ecm/chip or the injectors. I think I had a ton of power left and injectors should have been my next upgrade.

.02

See I've heard stuff like this before. Thats why I was wondering if it could be done without harm to a 350. Hopefully that friend of mine can come up with those injectors and I can get this put together right.

54inches
03-16-2007, 02:32 PM
Now with that said I was swapping from one tpi motor to another and it was built FOR a Tuned Port Injection. You need to check the specs on the engine that you are putting the injection on.

Russell
03-16-2007, 05:47 PM
54 brings up a HUGE point, build your engine for TPI! I tried bolting mine onto a mid 80s smogger engine with a cam upgrade, and it has a ton of trouble running. Midaswell have shoved a cheetah's brain in an elephant, and expecting it to work... Both have 4 legs and a tail, but they are totally different animals, so they need totally different "brains"

primerk5
03-16-2007, 07:36 PM
54 brings up a HUGE point, build your engine for TPI! I tried bolting mine onto a mid 80s smogger engine with a cam upgrade, and it has a ton of trouble running. Midaswell have shoved a cheetah's brain in an elephant, and expecting it to work... Both have 4 legs and a tail, but they are totally different animals, so they need totally different "brains"

Now you guys have me worried. My 350 is just a rebuilt 73 camaro engine. Do I need all of the roller stuff. Will not having that stuff really hinder the preformance of the engine?????? Now what do I do.

54inches
03-16-2007, 08:05 PM
The only problem with having any computer derived fuel injection with non-roller application is the presence of a knock sensor.

The knock sensor will pick up a "knock" and then either retard the timing or throw the computer in limp-home mode (closed-loop) and this is not BAD per se, but the computer is "letting" the engine run w/ not so optimum settings....it will run and run good at times, but it could always run better.......

Now from what you said the computer/wiring/FI unit is from an 88, so you wll have 9 injectors, the 9th is a cold start injector, and the system is MAF.


Ummm, it may work better with MAF, than if the system was Speed density, like the 90-92 models........

Also, I am not aware of any knock sensor delete or similation sensors, so you have to run this sensor. I think you do. I am not sure what will happen if you unplug it? It is usually screwed into the block right above the oilpan....

I hope this helps........

TPI definitely rocks, if it is running right......

primerk5
03-16-2007, 08:11 PM
So the possibilty of the ECU detecting a knock is greater due to the engine not being a roller motor? I'm understanding what your saying. just didn't think that it would really notice the difference between the friction and the roller engine. Man this gets drawn out more and more. I'm still going to try it though. Looks like I better start saving for roller parts also.

dyeager535
03-16-2007, 08:20 PM
I doubt it. '85-86 were not roller motors, I doubt they used a different knock sensor or different location to "deaden" the sensor. Knock sensors look for a specific "signature" and that corresponds to bore size. Highly unlikely a knock sensor is going to pick up flat tappet noise.

Go check on napaonline.com. You could probably even look at the knock sensor for any other GM 5.7L equipped vehicle from 1981-1999 or so, and see if the sensor is the same.

54inches
03-16-2007, 09:46 PM
A knock sensor will DEFINITELY pick up a flat tappet noise, it will also pick up timing gears. I know for a FACT. It may not pick up a hydraulic lifter. It will work, but how well is the question.

I am certain people have done it before, but I would go for full roller, for more reasons than just that......

You can pick up a roller core for CHEAP

I would look into it for the future.

primerk5
03-17-2007, 08:30 AM
So if 85-86 engines wern't roller maybe I need a knock sensor for one of those. Right?
I wonder if there is a way to keep a knock sensor from detecting any kind of knock. that would keep it from going to a closed loop mode.

54inches
03-17-2007, 08:48 AM
Yeah 87 was the first year of the tpi rollers....that is a good point about the knock sensor.....


What are the specs of the engine?

Blue85
03-17-2007, 09:12 AM
Different engines have the knock sensor in different locations for this exact reason. You want to use the knock sensor + module that originallly came with the block, not the knock sensor that came with the injection. They are tuned to the application to maximize knock detection over valvetrain noise. If the engine is too old to have a knock sensor, find an engine with the same bore and basic valvetrain and mimic that setup, meaning sensor, module and location of sensor. That's about the best you can do.

As for the original question, you need the right sized injectors and a properly programmed chip. I run 24 lb Ford injectors on my 350. You can cheat up or down a lb or two by adjusting fuel pressure, but you need to be close on injector size. Basically injector size is based on power output, but if they are too big you can't get a good idle.

dyeager535
03-17-2007, 10:21 AM
A knock sensor will DEFINITELY pick up a flat tappet noise, it will also pick up timing gears. I know for a FACT. It may not pick up a hydraulic lifter. It will work, but how well is the question.

I am certain people have done it before, but I would go for full roller, for more reasons than just that......

You can pick up a roller core for CHEAP

I would look into it for the future.

You know for a fact?

How are hydraulic flat tappets and gear drives ANYTHING like the knock signature of a 350 or 305? Go over to thirdgen, you'll find plenty of people running both with no problems. I bet HERE you'll find people running knock sensors on TBI...oh wait, ALL OUR TBI TRUCKS use a knock sensor and are flat tappet.

Get back to us when you have authoritative proof a TBI and TPI 350 knock sensor is different. You find the proof from Delco, Napa, GM, wherever, I'll shut up. I know they are all located in the passenger side coolant drain port, so location when comparing these two is certainly the same.

I'll save you the hassle. 213-324 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:displayDetails%28%20%27ACDELCO%27,%20%2721%27 ,%20%27213-324%27%29)is the acdelco part number for an '88 K5 with 5.7L knock sensor. Guess what the part number is for a TPI 1989 Camaro knock sensor, with a 5.7L? (I don't think I need to say anything about the roller cam the Camaro has)

54inches
03-17-2007, 07:02 PM
No need to GO over to thirdgen.org, I have been a member since 1996.

I think you got your panties in a wad and wanted to argue with somebody. And in that misunderstood what I said.

I am not sure how you know me and feel that you can get off talking the way to me that way.

I guess the fact that you have 14,000 posts makes you some kind of TPI/CK5/Knock sensor GOD.

I am just trying to help this guy and give him the information that I have. If I am wrong about something, then YOU prove it. I have seen a computer pick up the noise from a gear drive, and again SIR, I was just giving him an example that might be easier to understand.

I actually agree with what you are saying, but disagree with the part about it not picking up certain non-roller engine noise.

Show your true self some more, it is enlightening.

54inches
03-17-2007, 07:15 PM
ANYWAYS, egos set aside for a minute.

Primer, it is possible it could work, but as said before, try to find a roller short block ot build to suit.

Rock on with the questions.

dyeager535
03-17-2007, 07:40 PM
Take my "attitude" how you will. I went out, found data that entirely refuted your claims, and you choose to ignore the facts and attack the way they were presented. That's your problem, not mine. I'm here to help the poster, not get into a pissing match with someone.

I don't intend to mislead anyone, I'd expect you to have the same intention. First there was no question from you that it won't work, now it "might"?

I'm going to quote you so no one misunderstands "The only problem with having any computer derived fuel injection with non-roller application is the presence of a knock sensor.

The knock sensor will pick up a "knock" and then either retard the timing or throw the computer in limp-home mode (closed-loop) and this is not BAD per se, but the computer is "letting" the engine run w/ not so optimum settings....it will run and run good at times, but it could always run better......."

I'm not twisting any words here. First you say it will definitely not work right (your reply to me "A knock sensor will DEFINITELY pick up a flat tappet noise, it will also pick up timing gears. I know for a FACT.") now your answer is "Primer, it is possible it could work, but as said before, try to find a roller short block ot build to suit."

"I think you got your panties in a wad and wanted to argue with somebody. And in that misunderstood what I said."

No, I didn't misunderstand. Either you are wrong, you didn't write what you meant to write, or YOU are trying to argue with someone for no reason. Proven wrong, get personal. How mature. Thanks, I'm sure the original poster appreciates it too.

Oh, by the way, "closed loop" isn't what you think it is. :)

PS: I don't have a clue who you are, or where you live. Should I?

primerk5
03-18-2007, 07:09 AM
Ok, Girls.... Before this turns to an all out cat fight.

I'm taking your awnsers to heart. Some people find out different things in what they run into in their setups. I would think that a gear drive would make alot of noise inside a engine as it dose outside an engine. Though a question I would have on that is a knock sensor detects knocks, right? How about whines. I would really think that it is possible for a flat-tappit engine to make alot of valve noise that a knock sensor would pick up. But, If GM put TPI on flat tappit motors, then that would make sense to get that sensor. My question on that would be though(and you don't have to awnser, unless your a knock sensor engineer...) What and how dose a knock sensor hear a knock and at what levels dose it pick up a knock. Like I said in a previous post they have to make knock sensors that pick don't pick up everything. I don't know not a big deal right now, I'm going with the flat tappit knock which as dyeager said is the same knock sensor that runs in all of the TPI engines, So I guess I'll see what happens.

I have actually learned alot through this. I'm going to try to get that other engine out of the junkyard this summer just for the roller parts. I had already planned to do that. 250 bucks from intake to oil-pan including ECU and wiring. CAN'T beat that.... Its a different style TPI but it'll do for the roller stuff. I'm going to use the roller stuff in the new engine I build. Not the one that gets the TPI first off.(unless I decide to get crazy and pull the motor to do this. That might be a different story. I had a new question about something. But now in all of the crap that I got to laugh at, I can't remember it.

If I were rich I would fly you both out here and you guys could help me get this running. Buttt, Sorry I'm not rich... Yet, and, by the time I get rich I'll probably have the TPI running on my truck. Right now you guys seem to be the most knolageble (sp) on this. About 2 years ago it seemed to be SierreClassic and ryan B.
I appreciate any info I get, right or wrong i'll sort out the details and figure out what makes sence to me.

Now, god dern it, what was I going to ask??..??

primerk5
03-18-2007, 08:19 AM
Oh, oh , oh I remember. What is the ford injector number you guys are using. I see # 19s out there what is yours?

54inches
03-18-2007, 09:03 AM
yeager....Like I said, you misunderstood what I wrote.

PRIMER , All I am saying is that if you PUT a FI setup on a non-roller motor, the knock sensor COULD detect certain drivetrain noises that a roller setup would not produce.

Read it again. That is what I am saying.

54inches
03-18-2007, 09:10 AM
As far as the levels the sensors detects, I do not know.
It is called a knock sensor, but like you already figured out, it can pick up other noise like DRIVE GEARS and non-hydraulic or flat tappet drivetrains.

Again, and read this carefully, because AGAIN, I DO know this for a fact, and maybe I should qualify my statement for those that think I write in absolute, BUT.....

A KNOCK SENSOR WILL PICK UP THE AFOREMENTIONED NOISES.

I have seen it myself on ONE engine. That does not make it an absolute for knock sensors and I am not sure WHY yeager took it as an absolute.

I believe one of your questions was wanting to know how well this combo would work and would it work with what you have.

I in turn am trying to give you REAL world examples of the problems I have incurred. That's it.

54inches
03-18-2007, 09:25 AM
Don't forget, a 305 and 350 have entirely different timing requirements and knock signature, and that is ALL dealt with via the ECM (PROM actually) and ESC/knock sensor setup.

Do you have the actual signature, because that would actually be interesting to read.

It is counterintuitive that GM would do this since almost everything between the two engines is identical, except for the 45 ci(bore or stroke, can't remember) and 15 hp(at least on my 1992). It just seems dumb. I mean it would be easy, but why? The engines are the exact same, so WHY would they have different knock and ESC signatures and "requirements" The engine would not "require" anything different or produce any different knocks.

GM is in the business to ENGINEER as many components to work on as many different vehicles as possible. But, on this engine family for this vehicle they did it. I find that hard to believe, but that does not make it untrue.

Follow me?

Now yeager, do not get all bent out of shape, it is a series of simple questions.

dyeager535
03-18-2007, 12:11 PM
The engines *aren't* the same. Everything about them is different, except external dimensions. A 305 and 350 use different timing, different heads, different pistons, different size bores, and potentially different valves. All of those components are NOT the same. This is why the timing is different for all motors.

Different cylinders make different "noise" if you will, under knock. As an easy to understand comparison, different size pipes resonate at different frequencies when you hit them, right? That's why they sound different to your ears, and is why the knock sensor is tuned to different size bores.

GM used different knock sensors the same year for a 305 and 350. If the engines are identical (and they are externally only) there would BE no need for a different knock sensor.

54inches
03-18-2007, 01:09 PM
The engines *aren't* the same. Everything about them is different, except external dimensions. A 305 and 350 use different timing, different heads, different pistons, different size bores, and potentially different valves. All of those components are NOT the same. This is why the timing is different for all motors.

The first part makes complete sense in theory. I agree.

But saying that a 305 and 350 of the same year or for any year, for that matter, are completely different is ridiculous at best. I never said that they were IDENTICAL, but the same. I mean a 1.85 and 2.02 valves for these two engine are identical except for the valve diameter for the head. Come on, now you are just arguing to argue. Now a Ford 4.6 twin cam and a Cummins diesel are completely different engines.

Man, you crucify me for talking in absolutes and then you make a statement like that.

Anyways, we obviously are wasting this gentlemen's time and thread space, so let's just say we are arguing semantics and keep our input to his direct questions. With that said, notice I did agree with you about the harmonics involved in different sized engines, ie 4cyl vs 6 cyl vs 8 cyl, vs 10 cyl vs large differences in ci, but between a 305 and a 350 probably not. I know I cannot tell the difference, if you built two identically modded engines, the only difference being one was a 305 and one being a 350, but I know you do not speak in absolutes either, right?;)

primerk5
03-18-2007, 03:39 PM
Ending this knock sensor debate once and for all. Or try to, If as you said Dyeager.. 85 and 86 were non rollers, If thats the case they didn't start the 350 TPI untill 87 and if thats a roller I'm still up the creek without a paddle. They definatly use different part numbers between 305-350 but, they used the same part number for the 305 85-86(non roller) as the 87 and up (roller) so if they are roller and the older ones aren't roller and they use the same part number than it shouldn't make much difference. IMHO. But, I'm new to this. Reguardless I'm going to get the 350 and try it anyway.

dyeager535
03-18-2007, 05:32 PM
Come on, now you are just arguing to argue. Now a Ford 4.6 twin cam and a Cummins diesel are completely different engines.
Man, you crucify me for talking in absolutes and then you make a statement like that.
I know I cannot tell the difference, if you built two identically modded engines, the only difference being one was a 305 and one being a 350, but I know you do not speak in absolutes either, right?;)

I thought we were trying to be productive here instead of instigating?

So you are telling us that even though a 305 and 350 are "identical", things like valve shrouding have no effect, with two different bore sizes, and valves in the same location in the head?

Compression ratio (in some applications), chamber size, chamber shape, quench, none of these are different between a 305 and 350? Actually, they are. Do you disagree that these have a major effect on how prone an engine is to detonation? If the engines were ANYWHERE near identical, the horsepower and torque numbers would be mirrors of each other throughout the RPM range.

It doesn't matter how many cylinders are on an engine. A knock sensor doesn't CARE how many cylinders there are. It's looking for knock, be it from one cylinder or 30. If it "hears" knock, it reacts, period.

Primer, if you can get your hands on a roller 350 block, go for it. I would NEVER say that roller wouldn't be worth it if you are looking for a builder block anyways. Aftermarket roller stuff is stupid expensive compared to stock roller. I just wouldn't use lifter design as criteria for the type of fuel delivery I was going to use.

primerk5
03-18-2007, 07:19 PM
Primer, if you can get your hands on a roller 350 block, go for it. I would NEVER say that roller wouldn't be worth it if you are looking for a builder block anyways. Aftermarket roller stuff is stupid expensive compared to stock roller. I just wouldn't use lifter design as criteria for the type of fuel delivery I was going to use.

By saying I was getting the 350 anyhow I mean't I was getting the 350 knock sensor. I'm going to try to get the 350 roller motor. Right now first priority is to get this engine I already have in my truck TPI'd and running on fuel injection. I'll work out the bugs once thats done. IF I have to tear the whole darn TPI back off to straigten something like roller lifters/cam/valvetrain so-be it. I'm going to try it reguardless for now flat tappit.

My big thing question now is. Is a knock sensor looking for a "knock" or any sound that dosen't sound right. And how dose it detect this. I'm going to try to figure this out if you guys keep on debating this subject.

If SierreClassic is reading any of this... Is your engine a roller motor???

54inches
03-18-2007, 07:32 PM
"Knock" is used like kleenex or crescent wrench. I think it should be called a "non-normal noise" sensor, if you will. It IS looking for a knock, but the intent is to look for anything that could possibly be detrimental to the engine and that possible retardation of timing and what not could possibly fix.

Where the problem comes in, and for non-arguments sake, when a friend had a gear drive on his TPI Camaro, so he could have that "blower" noise, the engine started running different and the only change he had made was the gear drive. The knock sensor was picking up this "knock/noise" as something bad, so therefore it retarded the timing and hindered the performance.

It was determined that it was the cause when he went back to a Cloyle's double timing chain and the engine ran baetter than ever.

Now again, for non-arguments sakes(!) this is one example.

I do not know the HOW a knock sensor works, but I am sure it is probably has a certain dampening factor that can be converted to an electrical signal that can be read by the ecm.

Make sense?

primerk5
03-18-2007, 07:46 PM
Make sense?

Sounds good....
j/k
Ya it makes sence. I need to get this wiring harness so I can start assembly of this thing. Hopefully my freinds connection can score me some BRAND NEW CHEAP(price cheap not, quality cheap) Injectors for this thing. Then I can try this and see if it runs right.

Anybody know on the intake of a certain model tpi firebird it came with a hose that made a right angle to go into an air box on the passenger side anyone know what year/model this was. I want to use this to route the air intake tubing away from my Radiator. Unless you have an better suggestions.

dyeager535
03-18-2007, 09:53 PM
A little unclear what you are trying to do with the air intake.

On mine, I've got a JTR elbow (90*) that fits on the throttle body, facing the drivers side, with two joined air duct sections going to the air cleaner mounted on the drivers side battery tray, drawing air through the core support.

I can check my old email and see if I have the notes of what kind of setup I've got (pretty sure it was around an '89 'bird) if it sounds anything like what you need/want. Obviously the elbow would let you go either direction, but on mine, passenger side, the alternator would be in the way.

primerk5
03-19-2007, 05:53 AM
Ya, I think your right the drivers side would probably be a better location. It sounds kinda like what I'm looking for. I had seen what I was talking about in a firebird a few years back and thought that would make a great thing to run the intake to an airbox.

dyeager535
03-19-2007, 08:20 AM
I've got some pics here...obviously MAP setups don't have to be so complex, but REACHING someplace for cold air induction is the hard part either way. :)

http://dyeager535.topcities.com/TPI/index.html

primerk5
03-19-2007, 09:09 AM
That is what I need. What parts did you use for that?

primerk5
03-19-2007, 09:31 AM
New question VSS are you running this. What will happen to this when you go to bigger tires??

dyeager535
03-19-2007, 12:09 PM
The tube off the air cleaner is a 1988 GTA part. I believe the air cleaner itself is as well, as I recall very few of the F-bodies used that setup with a "standard" tube on it that is easily adaptable like that one. The shorter section of plastic tubing came from something like a Volvo from the wrecking yard. Short section of steel tube between the two internally for the hose clamps to bite into.

VSS, yes I'm running it. Wouldn't run injection without it. Two stock options, one potentially expensive, one cheap. Aftermarket has other solutions, probably not as cheap as the cheap stock one though. :)

If you stay cable drive speedo, VSS can be had from many trucks from '81-89. Swap the entire cluster in, run the VSS output to your ECM, done.

Expensive is find a 1990-91 NP241 or 1991 NP205 t-case, and swap that with whatever you have. Get the cluster out of a 1990-91 R/V truck (our body style) and the DRAC from same rig (or Astro, etc). DRAC gets the data from the VSS on the t-case (no speedo cable!) and sends the correct output to the Speedo and ECM.

The second option CAN be a pain (but good deals can be had for the 241 if you can wait) but the major advantage is you can have a working speedometer, if that matters to you, that is accurate, you correct it via some jumper wires in the DRAC. Tire changes, gear ratio changes, pull the DRAC out, desolder/resolder a few jumpers, dead on speedometer again. Besides, this dumps the cable drive speedometer which tends to be failure prone (based on age) and cleans up the undercarriage.

It really isn't that much additional wiring, and the electronic speedometers are NICE IMO, especially compared to the cable drive ones.

The first option is cheap, but to get an accurate speedometer you've got to change transfer case gear(s). Not necessarily hard, but more cost and time than changing jumpers in the DRAC. I had both setups, and I like the DRAC setup better, but I got what at the time was a decent deal on a '91 205.

primerk5
03-19-2007, 07:05 PM
Whats up with the 81-89 speedo. I have a 86 but my truck wasn't a fuel injected truck it was a carb truck dose that make a difference??

dyeager535
03-20-2007, 07:58 AM
Doesn't matter, if it had cruise or the computer controlled carb (unlikely for you) it will have the VSS on the back of the speedometer.

If it had neither, you can grab JUST the buffer and some of the connector wiring from the wrecking yard (small light green or yellow box with three wires and an optical eye on one side, multi-terminal connector(s) on the other) and plumb that into your setup. The "eye" simply bolts to the back of the speedometer, one wire to pin A10 on the ECM, one to ground, one to 12V. Handy to keep that in mind when you pull one. :)

twodollars
03-20-2007, 05:43 PM
Just an FYI if it helps. I have a 91 350 formula tpi car, and the factory air cleaner assembly was on the passenger side, with the tube running from the throttle body over to the side of the radiator and into the round air cleaner housing. It used a bellows to connect to the throttle body, the rest of the duct was rigid plastic. Since purchase a thousand years ago I switched to the clamp on KN element on the throttle body.

primerk5
03-20-2007, 06:38 PM
Doesn't matter, if it had cruise or the computer controlled carb (unlikely for you) it will have the VSS on the back of the speedometer.

If it had neither, you can grab JUST the buffer and some of the connector wiring from the wrecking yard (small light green or yellow box with three wires and an optical eye on one side, multi-terminal connector(s) on the other) and plumb that into your setup. The "eye" simply bolts to the back of the speedometer, one wire to pin A10 on the ECM, one to ground, one to 12V. Handy to keep that in mind when you pull one. :)

HAHA!!!! my truck had cruise, So that means it may have the VSS on it right???

dyeager535
03-20-2007, 06:44 PM
As much as I'd like to say it means your truck DOES have VSS, it depends if anyone has gotten in there and messed with it.

If your cruise works, you should be set. If your cruise doesn't work, then you can hope it's not because the VSS has been removed or is broken. Still wouldn't be a big deal to replace/add, you are going to have the gauges out anyways. :)

Wouldn't be a bad time to fix the cruise either, might as well have it, you'll have all the TPI electric stuff anyways, what's adding cruise to it? (not much actually)

primerk5
03-20-2007, 07:53 PM
As much as I'd like to say it means your truck DOES have VSS, it depends if anyone has gotten in there and messed with it.

If your cruise works, you should be set. If your cruise doesn't work, then you can hope it's not because the VSS has been removed or is broken. Still wouldn't be a big deal to replace/add, you are going to have the gauges out anyways. :)

Wouldn't be a bad time to fix the cruise either, might as well have it, you'll have all the TPI electric stuff anyways, what's adding cruise to it? (not much actually)

Ya, I have everything for the Cruise control that came on my trucks factory engine. I don't know if it worked as I never got to drive it with the original engine in it. I would say that nothing has been messed with behind the dash because almost everything on the truck hasn't been taken apart.

Thats looking up for me.

Got a new question, I'm not going to be running the 700R4 Trans I will be running a TH350. What is your opinion on that. What will have to happen to tell the computer that? I heard you have to splice wires together if your not running a 700r4. Or dosen't it matter in this case?

dyeager535
03-20-2007, 08:19 PM
I don't believe it matters. Auto trans must be an auto trans as far as the ECM is concerned. You'll have to run a wire or two for the park neutral switch, but the switch is already there too.

twodollars
03-21-2007, 04:43 PM
At worst you would have to get a prom for a manual trans car. Anyhow, any of the knock sensor issues / non issues and trans control can be remedied by a modified chip. Theres plenty of people out there that can get your fuel and timing ball park close for not a lot of money, and can take out whatever you don't want, such as VATS, speed limit, EGR, whatever.