CK5 Forums




PDA

View Full Version : talk to me about PTO winches...


colbystephens
05-03-2008, 09:01 AM
i'd like to run a PTO winch on my blazer - is it possible to run a winch that is mounted to the front of my truck with a PTO? i understand that the pto runs another driveshaft, but what type of winch would i procure? does the PTO then determine the pulling capacity of the winch?

dremu
05-03-2008, 12:45 PM
The pulling capacity would be determined by the torque of the PTO, sure, but is more affected by the gearing of the winch. Consider it like your axles, right -- torque delivered is a function of the torque at the transfer case multiplied by the gear ratio.

Except your winch should have a ratio in the hundreds-to-one :D so you end up with crazy numbers.

And yeah, I've NO idea how you'd get a PTO shaft to a front winch on our trucks. You generally see them on tow truck for the mid-mount winch, or on the big military trucks (i.e. 2 1/2 ton aka "deuce and a half" or larger.)

What's wrong with your basic normal electric winch?

-- A

smalltruckbigcid
05-03-2008, 03:58 PM
run the PTO from your trans (sm465) and the shaft goes forward to the winch. That means you need a PTO for your trans and a shaft you would need to build or have built. It would only turn when the PTO was engaged, cab controlled by you.

The PTO bolts to the side of the tranny case where the cover is, thats what the big flat plate with 6 bolts in it is for. Since you want the shaft going forward you want a reverse mounted one, usually they are mounted with the shaft going to the rear. That probably won't be cheap or easy to get, well maybe easy but not cheap. For the headache involved I think unless you found a used takeoff setup complete I would go electric or hydraulic. If you go hydraulic you want one that is not run from your PS pump, rather a real dedicated pump.

Last but not least if you run anything but an electric you HAVE to have the engine running or you have no winch

BILTIT
05-03-2008, 06:14 PM
I have a PTO for the front, came off a pickup. I have seen two in my lifetime so they cannt be that hard to find, hehe. The PTO you want mounted on your transfercase instead of the tranny, better setup in my opinion. This way you can winch and/or winch and drive where as a PTO on the tranny only turns when driving, i believe.

The shaft runs to the front with a steady bearing on the driverside frame. The main downfall of a PTO is the low spot on the winch where the shaft attaches.

PTO winches are rated per the winch, they have shear pins which are supposed to shear at a certain force to prevent over torqueing. Many people report that PTO winches never shear at the correct force and will pull much more than they are rated for.

PTO's can be run hard and all day long, since they have a ~300HP motor driving them, not much stalls them unless the motor stops. They can be dangerous because they do not stall, this is why many do not like them. It is harder to gauge the amount of torque on the line because of the lack of stalling.

There is a connect/disconnect on the PTO under the truck (cable or shaft shifted) and a connect/disconnect at the winch.

They are bigger than an electric, thus they are heavy and usually require a hefty bumper to hold them.

http://www.putfile.com/pic/7044585

1 ton with pto winch in front, see the guard on the low spot in front?

dieselponyexpress
05-04-2008, 01:18 AM
They are bigger than an electric, thus they are heavy and usually require a hefty bumper to hold them.

http://www.putfile.com/pic/7044585

1 ton with pto winch in front, see the guard on the low spot in front?

Nice! :eek1: I bet you could push a train with this bumper. :bow:

Walter

BILTIT
05-04-2008, 07:51 AM
Probably, most refer to is as a cow catcher haha. I have removed all grill guard (vertical) peices and have just the regular bumper now, sill waiting to put it on.

colbystephens
05-04-2008, 12:21 PM
i found two of them here in oregon for $200 or less in good shape... military issue. that low point does worry me tho. thoughts??

dremu
05-04-2008, 12:30 PM
Consider that $200 will buy you an 8274 or the like ... admittedly maybe one that needs a bit of love, but that's gonna be cheaper than a driveshaft, PTO setup, etc.

-- A

colbystephens
05-04-2008, 06:29 PM
Consider that $200 will buy you an 8274 or the like ... admittedly maybe one that needs a bit of love, but that's gonna be cheaper than a driveshaft, PTO setup, etc.

-- A
true, but these are 30K lb winches.

dremu
05-04-2008, 06:42 PM
true, but these are 30K lb winches.

Oh god. Have you SEEN those? I don't think they'd FIT on our trucks :haha:

-- A

BILTIT
05-04-2008, 07:19 PM
My PTO is an 8K and it is larger in diameter than my warn 10K, shorter in length though.

greywolf
05-04-2008, 07:33 PM
is that a tulsa pto winch? looks like mine:D 8000lb tulsa pto.i have the levers and everything.

colbystephens
05-04-2008, 08:29 PM
Oh god. Have you SEEN those? I don't think they'd FIT on our trucks :haha:


hmmmm... well, that would be a bummer. :haha: no, i haven't seen it's size in person... just a pic with no reference on it.

dremu
05-04-2008, 08:55 PM
hmmmm... well, that would be a bummer. :haha: no, i haven't seen it's size in person... just a pic with no reference on it.

Never mind the weight -- not just the winch, but the cable. A 30K would be on a deuce-and-a-half, say, so I'm gonna WAG we're talking about 1/2" or bigger cable .. and ~100 feet of that stuff ain't light.

I know people talk about hydraulic winches and how electrics suck and blah de blah ... but ya know, there's a reason why there's so dang many electric ~10Kish winches out there. They're relatively cheap and easy to install, simple, easy to fix, did I mention simple? =))

-- A

UPS
05-04-2008, 09:53 PM
The PTO you want mounted on your transfercase instead of the tranny, better setup in my opinion. This way you can winch and/or winch and drive where as a PTO on the tranny only turns when driving, i believe.

The PTO on the trans of my 1 ton dump truck works in neutral and first gear. I haven't tried it in any other gear.

Mike

BILTIT
05-04-2008, 09:56 PM
is that a tulsa pto winch? looks like mine:D 8000lb tulsa pto.i have the levers and everything.

You bet, 8K tulsa.

BILTIT
05-04-2008, 09:58 PM
The PTO on the trans of my 1 ton dump truck works in neutral and first gear. I haven't tried it in any other gear.

Mike

Hmm, i will have to find that info again.

BILTIT
05-04-2008, 10:37 PM
So i found abit, I was wrong. The PTO style will determine which drive (tranny or tcase) you use.

''tranny mounted pto speed is determined by engine rpm, direction (fwd/rev) is determined by a 2 direction pto box.

transfer mounted pto speed is determined by the transmission gear. i.e. 1,2,3,4,R. ''

Chevy911
05-05-2008, 04:44 AM
I've got a 10,000 pound ramsey PTO winch mounted on my blazer, its probably about half the speed of my warn M10000 on my pickup, but I never have to worry about burning solinoids or overheating it. Running the shafts wasn't too difficult, I've got a 2 piece shaft with a slip, and a pillow block mounted to the engine crossmember. the only mod is grinding out the existing hole in the forward frame crossmember for more clearance around the shaft. Also I've got a chelsea PTO mounted on my NP205 with a SM465, allows for 4 forward speeds, and the manditory ability to power out cable with reverse, since you cannot disengage the winch drum with any tension on it at all. Although I only use 4th gear for actual winching, and 1st for spinning the winch slowly so I can get out and engage the drum. One other bonus, I always remove my warn from my truck when I'm not using it, for fear of it getting stolen, but the PTO winch is permanently installed, and so difficult to remove, that I always have it, come in very handy when you don't expect it.

greywolf
05-06-2008, 07:36 PM
You bet, 8K tulsa.


sweet! now i know who to talk to about them.do you have any picks of it mounted???

BILTIT
05-06-2008, 10:03 PM
The only pics I have.

BILTIT
05-06-2008, 10:06 PM
I will be pulling th winch apart and going through it, aswell as mounting it in the next month or so.

Speedo
05-06-2008, 11:55 PM
I ran a 10K Ramsey PTO for many years and there are advantages and disadvantages to any set up. They are better suited to recovering others than they are for self recovery. I used a pillow block and 2 piece driveshaft, Chelsea PTO on the t-case with a Th-400. I could use the winch all day long and not have to worry about overheating the motor, I did have to be careful with the skinny pedal though as just a little over idle would snap a 3/8" cable.

When using the winch for self recovery you could either put the t-case in neutral and let the winch do all the work or put the t-case in gear and spin the tires faster than the winch would wind the line in and in my case digging massive ruts while pulling myself foward.

Gus
http://pics.montypics.com/speedo/2004-04-07/1081327109_fish_and_feathers_trailer_083.jpg

POWERMAD
05-07-2008, 04:30 AM
I found an old IH truck and grabbed the PTO winch set up. Whole lot of stuff.
I wound up giving it away after several years.

Ya need to find some guy that has an old 8274 laying around the shop floor that needs some love and offer him $200

6.2Blazer
05-07-2008, 09:16 AM
The 30k PTO winches are huge, I would hate to speculate on how much they weigh, but I very much doubt they would be practical for hanging on the front of a Blazer.

As already mentioned there are both advantages and disadvantages to any engine driven (PTO or hydraulic) style winch. The biggest disadvantage I have seen is the truck has to be running for them to work which isn't very good on the trail for self-recovery. I can't count the number of times I've seen a truck on it's side, drowned in water, stalled on a hill, etc... where they could use their electric winch to recover the vehicle.

dyeager535
05-07-2008, 09:29 AM
My dads got a Ramsey PTO on his truck (465/205, 1974 frame) I believe it to be an 8K variant. As it's setup, transmission gear determines line speed and direction.

No idea how old the winch is, it's probably 30 years at least. Not once has it ever failed, although sometimes getting the lever on the winch "in gear" is difficult. Then again, in it's entire life with my dad, he's done NOTHING to it except maybe lube it once, and replace the cable.

The major disadvantage I see is that if the engine is dead, you aren't winching. Of course, running the driveshaft is more complex than wiring an electric, plus the PTO actuator cable you need, but that's fairly easy. Spooling line up and what not is a two person job, one controlling the transmission/clutch, one guiding the cable.

The PTO driveshaft simply passes through the front frame crossmember, on his '74 the factory hole lined up pretty well for the shaft, he just hogged it out a bit.

BILTIT
05-07-2008, 10:07 AM
That is why I have an electric mounted in the rear under the bed. PTO in front for the hard and heavy work, warn 10K in the back for lighter duty stuff and backup if the motor fails, it also helps when loading stuff onto a trailer.

Figured I would cover all my bases.

colbystephens
05-07-2008, 04:13 PM
That is why I have an electric mounted in the rear under the bed. PTO in front for the hard and heavy work, warn 10K in the back for lighter duty stuff and backup if the motor fails, it also helps when loading stuff onto a trailer.

Figured I would cover all my bases.
that's good stuff right there! :)

vortec
05-07-2008, 04:49 PM
biggest disadvantage of a pto, imo, is that you have to have the engine running for it to work. so, if you're in a really bad situation where the engine has stalled or you're at some extreme angle where the oil is sloshed away from the pump pickup, you're either SOL or risking engine damage. on the other hand, i've seen plenty of electrics burn up or get wet and short out. yeah, just stick one of each on there so you're always prepared.:thumb:

monsterbowtiev8
01-07-2010, 02:02 AM
i am trying to find a pto drive also can anyone help me out....its a 465 in a 79

v30mongo
01-07-2010, 06:50 AM
i am trying to find a pto drive also can anyone help me out....its a 465 in a 79
Check the Parker Chelsea website. Download the applications manual. You will find a model 340 and a model 352 PTO units to fit a SM465 for both left and right mounting. They are both reversible PTO units as will be required for PTO-winch drive off of the main transmission. On a 73 to 87 type 4x4 trucks you will find a hole in the front frame crossmember, drivers side. Enlarging this hole will allow the PTO shaft to run grom the PTO unit fowards to the front mounted winch. The oil filter on V8 engines will have to be fitted with a remote unit because the PTO shaft location. I have done this on a 1988 V30 with a 6.2/465. The winch I used is a Ramsey M600 Industrial. The PTO shaft is a 1 1/8" hex shafting. The U joints are from Neapco, also a downloadable manual. The winch mount/bumper had to be fabracted as no factory units are made now, as with the in cab shift linkage for the PTO. The winch drum will hold about 200 ft. of 1/2" cable. A roller flarhead was fitted, also from Ramsey. Winch line speed is controled by engine speed. At idle it is about 5 ft./min and at 2500 RPM is about 25 ft./min. Line load does not affect winch speed verry much.

wasted wages
01-07-2010, 11:29 AM
Not to hijack,,,,just food for thought..

With regards to the truck needing to be running for a hydro winch to operate,,couldn't you rig a small engine ( like a 3.5 hp briggs) and a power steering pump together to run the winch if the engine in the truck can't run ?

seems like a workable solution if the pulley's were sized properly to drive the P/S pump at the correct rate of pressure and you had a few hydro hoses laying around..

Or even a 12 volt hydro pump....like they use on lift gates....

Just a thought....:dunno::dunno::dunno:......carry on.

Fordum
01-08-2010, 08:36 PM
I've use lots of PTO winches. And have been involved with a couple of threads here about them. Since I am seriously lazy, I'll just post the links here.

http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249796
http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247677