CK5 - The Full-Size GM Off Road Community

OK, I'm home on Saturday night with no date... again. I'm on CK5 and I turn around and look at the TV and see the top of this '88-'98 Chevy regular cab sinking into a lake. Then I see this Ford Superduty pulling it out along with a boat hooked to the Chevy. The accouncer comes on bragging out some highest torque in its class crap. When the guy with the Ford is getting into his truck, the Chevy wife turns to her husband and says "well that sunk fast" and the Ford guy says under his breath "Like a rock...".

I can't help but wonder why Ford is always resorting to this kinda of adversting. Oh well, all the Ford's over 20 years old are virtually non-existent.

Ditto! I hates a F'd Over Rebuilt Dodge, failed on race day,F'd on rough dirt,you can hear a ford rust on any type of nite, I'd rather push a chevy a mile than drive a ford,Driver returns on foot,the list is so endless.......Damn!
Bill C /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

Anyone remember the Chevy comercial where at the end a broken light bulb was swinging across the screen? The "ford" better idea light. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif They all do it at one time or the other. Ford had to come up with something cause Chevy's taking over the truck market. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

Did yall know 80% of the fords since 1980 are still on the road?.....


the other 20% actually make it home LOL

I try to keep an open mind, but for the life of me I can not understand how they can sell those Super Dutys.
They are the biggest, seccond thought-slapped togather, hack I've ever driven and worked on. Unbelievable!

It's probably because Ford will finance anyone who can fog-up a mirror.

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
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HAVE YOU DRIVEN OVER A FORD /forums/images/icons/confused.gif ......LATELY?! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

The only reason Fords even sell is they build 'em and sell 'em so cheap, then make up the loss with their service departments /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

What I find interesting is that last year furd posted a 5.4 BILLION dollar loss, while GM posted a profit. How can a corporation eat a 5.4 billion dollar loss? I just don't get it.

Actually, Ford stands for:

Flip
Over
Read
Directions

/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Think of all the new tire ford had to buy last year. Of course they posted a loss. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

ZING!!! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Boo hoo hoo! Poor Ford had to replace Firestone tires at their expense!!! /forums/images/icons/frown.gif /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Being an owner of both marques, I've gotta say one is no worse than the other with advertising. As far as the Super Duty goes, look at the competition it's had - the 6.5 was no screamer by any means, and GM's 3/4 - 1 ton lineup card really sucked before the Silverado line came out (88-98): IF you could find anything other than a ext cab K1500 Z71 on the lot (atleast in AZ), odds were that it'd be a white C2500 Cheyenne single cab with a 350. Ford also has been responsive to commercial customers' needs where GM has been strictly focused on the "personal use" market. I remember when Ford came out with the fixed-rate repairs at their dealerships GM had commercials saying that they didn't need the fixed rates bacause GM products didn't need to be repaired as often.

Good points, I'd have to say I bought my 74 Blazer for two reasons 1. I've always had better luck with them and can understand whats going on under the hood better and 2.what could be cooler looking than a Chevy...Camaro over must@ng, Blazer over bron<o, yadda yadda yadda.just my 2 /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

chevs suck.
I wish i had bought a ford, wouldnt have had to replace the frame!

once u work at a furd dealership you'll never ever buy one, especially after looking when u look at all the recalls they have. Plus we get new cars w/ single digit miles on em in the shop for f'd up reasons, we had a Blackwood Demo that needed a new tranny, and the new maruader had electrical problems.

phill

First On Recall Day

All the more reasons to stick with the Yugo's or Daiwoo's!! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Thats funny,I worked for Ford for 8 years and if I ever buy a new vehicle it will be a Ford.In fact Im looking for a Ford tow rig right now.Every manufacturer has there problems but I think Ford makes a supirior product when compared to the rest.

What do you do at the dealership?

i grew up on fords, never had many major problems, most ran excellent...
the only reoccuring problem was the exhaust wouldnt last more than a year...
my parents just thought it was ****ty material ford used..
i certainly didnt tell then that everytime the exhaust fell off was when i was jumping it over a big hump in the road at 70...
oh the things we do as kids just to impress a few girls
hahahaha

parts runner, any part that goes to techs goes through me so most of the time i know wats goin on the w/ vehicle, but the other day i got to bring my boss's new maruader to the muffler shop, they're not as fast as they claim to be, trust me, i know /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

phill

I don't know about the whole Chevy Blazer looking better than Bronco thing....The '78-'79 Broncs came out and swept the SUV market, had Chevy sh*tting themselves /forums/images/icons/blush.gif I do think both companies make great products though. Sure you'll hear a few stories about Blackwoods needing new trannies or whatever but I've heard a few stories myself about Duramaxes eating crank shafts...go figure, no one's perfect.

i grew up with fords, the suburban was our first GMC, we bought it about 8-9 yrs ago and i love it. it's had just as many problems as the fords we've had. but we've had the sub longer than any ford. we've had a hard time with our 1 ton ford van's trannie, but i like my dad's expedition though.

i dont mind fords i just hate to work on them /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

My point exatly.... /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

damn are we on the same page tonight or what????? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

this is getting creepy...

Later

*insert twilight music here* /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I hate all the fords, ive seen some pretty crappy ones come throuhg our dealership, but then again ive seen a few crappy gm's. but the are BY FAR more crappy fords than gm's, i have also driven both and the gm's drive a lot tighter than fords, thats my $.02

You work at a Ford dealer and say how crappy the cars you work on are. I bet if you worked at a GM dealer then you say it about those cars. When you see them they're there because they've crapped out. I worked for a independent garage in the past and they're all crappy to work on.

Fagot Opperated Road Desaster

"Ford makes a supirior product"???????????????????

Quality rating report was just released a couple of weeks ago and GM came in 3rd behind Toyota and Honda(the highest any American manufacturer has ever finished). Furd came in 5th, which is better than the last place finish they had last year. GM sold 40,000 more trucks than Furd did in the first quarter of this year. Analysts are expecting that gap to widen. Since the turn around of the economy GM and Dodges stock values have increased over 30%, Furd has managed only 6%. GM must be doing something right!

If anyone thinks that the tire fiasco Furd had can explain 5.4 BILLION dollar loss then you are crazy. I'm sure that cost them a lot of money, but not 5.4 BILLION dollars! Funny thing is GM showed a profit last year!

IMHO.......Furd SUCKS!!!!!!!

Yes the tire deal cost they billons, not just the tires but the bad publicity also cost them a lot of sales too.

Well I do have one thing I am thankful to Ford for.
Having to work all the time on the many fords I have owned all my life has made me a pretty good mechanic. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

I know many many people who have switched from ford to GM products because of all the problems they have their ford vehicles. Maby thats why ford lost 5 bil$$$
I am not a brand fatheful person. I like vehicles no matter what kind, that do not cause me trouble.
I have owned many different brands of vehicles over the last 30 years. By far and away the most reliable have been GM.
Dont think I will ever buy another ford. I'm getting too old to work on cars all the time.

Oh and BTW That exact thing in that ford commercial happend to a buddy of mine only in reverse.
He was launching his boat with his F150 pu.
He parked on the ramp set the emergency brake and got out to take a tie down off the boat. Just after he got out he heard a POP! A part in the emergency brake broke and the boat and truck rolled into Pyramid Lake. He got towed out by a Chevy. Soon after that he sold the ford and bought a Suburban.

I put my 'brand pride' behind one vehicle only. The Jimmy I currently have has been exceptionally reliable and has been by far the best all around vehicle I've ever owned. It was rusty at one time though but now that is fixed so I'm even happier with it. Brand loyalty is kinda silly, each brand has it's good points and bad. Ford starter wiring is much superior to Chevy's...HEI kicks ass on Fords nightmare ignition.

I'll continue to make mods based on what makes sense to me rather than what the part or whatever originally came off of.

As for the ad both Chev and Ford have come up with some real zingers over the years...they're as bad as Coke and Pepsi.

We have 4 vehicles right now. An 81 Jimmy (tRusty) a 74 Blazer (project) an 88 XJ Cherokee, and an 86 Mustang GT project. I need a Dodge and an import still/forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Rene

Ford wiring scares me! When I was a little turd, my dad used to do fire investigation on the side. I'd go along alot while he was making reports. He did quite a bit of car fires too. He'd make tape dictations and it generally started out with "vehicle is a Ford...".

This summer we had an old Ford clunker trunk up at the shop that we got in on a trade. Wouldn't fire one bit. Looked over at the brain box for the distributor and saw a bunch of goo below it. Ford puts this rubbery stuff on the back of the box to seal it. It got so hot at one point that the sealer had to turn to liquid. That same truck recieved a box off this old Ford pickup that went up in flames that we had in the yard.

Last summer we had Ford truck in that needed a new distributor and when we were bumping the motor to get it on one, the solenoid stuck. It kept turning on its own will. We had to unhook the battery and to make it stop.

My uncle had a buddy that he gave this '85 Ford truck too because no one wanted it. It had, get ready for this, a fire under the hood. Not too bad of a fire, toasted fuel lines and wiring, but thats it. He worked for weeks on it and got it ready to run. The big day came and nothing. Opened the hood to have a look with a plug out to check for fuel while one guy cranked. He got a face full of gas. The fuel pressure regulator goofed and was the culprit for the fire.

Also, what is the deal with cracked exhaust manifolds and 80s-90s truck bumpers. The bumpers always looked like they've been pulled from the bottom. Hey we're on a roll here! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif One more thing, Bill Ford can quit making stupid commercials and take all that money spent on adversting and help the company. We get to hear about how rugged he is because he won't sleep in a hotel if you can't open the windows....OoOoO. That sounds like it goes nicely with the independent rear suspension on the new Explorer. It was funny how Four Wheel and Off-Road trashed in a review.

Not to be totally unfair here.... Chevy's rust, older models cracked the frame by the steering box, and lets not talk about the early 700R4s.

Rant Off

Well we get em when they're old and worn and then complain about em (or brag about em...) I look at an older rig as a great starting point for what I wanna build. By the time I'm mostly done it doesn't resemble anything that came out of anyones factory. I might as well strip all the badging off and call it a home built...

Rene

So True! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I might get some hell for this but

if you look under a 2002 F350 there is a Dana 60

look under a 2002 3500HD and what do you see IFS

I got my blazer because of the stright axle and when I can aford it I will get an F350

I love old Chevys but would not kick a hog in the ass for a new one

Found
On
Russian
Dump

deck /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

Well, most people who buy new trucks aren't into lifting them and taking them offroad and beating the crap out of them! I know I would never take my new 2500HD into the woods or through a mud pit they cost too much! That is why I have my K5, and that is why IT has a Dana 60. Do this, take a new F350 and a new K3500 and hook a loaded 4 horse trailer behind them and drive a few hundred miles. You will be begging to ride in the Chevy on the way back. The Furds ride like crap.

That D60 won't be any good to you when you are broke down on the side of the road with electrical problems. Just this morning I stopped to help a guy that was on the side of the road. He was in a 2002 four door Furd dually that had 14K miles on it. He was pulling a race car trailer headed toward Birmingham. To say the least he was VERY pissed off. He said that this was the 4th time his truck had stranded him on the side of the road. He said he was going to try to force Furd to buy it back from him. It apparently has had electrical gremlins from day one, and it has also had to have a new turbo already. I personally don't like breaking down so I'll stick to my GM products!

I thought that they had Dana 50's? Anyway, I agree with the straight axle being superioir offroad, but I would go for a 3/4 ton dodge before a super duty. Dodge has d70 rear d60 front, coil sprung front end with fourlink... As for their engines though, probably stuck with the cummins (unless you want a gutless V10.) There isn't a new GM out there that catches my eye anymore.

Overall I must say I favor chevy over Ford because everything seems to make more sense. As mentioned especially ignition stuff. Form ignitions, wiring, engines are a bit mind boggling at times. IFS for us TTB for them. Props on a solid front axle to ford and dodge, still prefer a cummings for my diesel choice.

One baffling thing I notice recently is new F250 superduties have 7 Lug rims! WTF is that?! Where can you find anything aftermarket for that? Also the new dodges on 20" rims thecheapest set of 20" tires I have seen here is $1200 a set. Dodge is cheap in price but buying a truckon 20's could be a costly mistake.

Also neighbor has a Excursion...he kept hearing rattling near the rear axle Ford dealer found nothing, two independant shops found nothing. Finally he found an axle u-bolt in his driveway the other day! /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

Every make has some F'd up stuff but over all I'll stick with my chevies!

I can explain both the small Ford manifolds and the 87-91 bumpers - The later 302/351W manifolds exit further back to clear the TTB crosmember, and there is absolutely zero support at the outlet, causing vibration from the Y-pipe to eventually crack it. As for the bumpers, two words - bad idea. Bad materials also figure in - anyone who's relatively strong can bend the bottom out by hand on one (Or by twisting a stuck bolt while taking the air dam off) /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif Look at one advantage the Bronco kept over the Blazer - it was around until '96 - Until market forces demanded the POS Expedition. On a related note, the "new" F150 is probably the bigtgest part of what hurt Ford's light-truck market dominance - Nobody who actually uses the truck really wants the A-Arm IFS, but since you now have no alternative, may as well go with fashion over function, and go with whatever's cheapest or has the best options package.

Hopefully Bill Ford will see the light and repair the damage his predecessors did by building the ½ tons and SUVS with a focus on real world functionality again, and GM will do SOMETHING - but to be honest, I think GM is too far gone - too much emphasis has been put on downsized SUVS and front-drive econoboxes for Chevrolet to ever be the market force it once was. Chevy also used to tout themselves as the working class car company - about all John Q Bluecollar can afford from the Chev lineup is a stripped model downsize. We've been investigating purchase of a new pickup, and found something interesting - For the price of a pretty basic Silverado 1500, I can get a really nicely equipped F250 SD.

And if you want to talk screwy engineering, look no further than the 7 lug wheels from the F250 light duty and the Expeditions with HD axles /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif The plastic bed option for the 2002 Silverados is interesting too /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

I stand by Shannon on this one. I like some Fords but hate to work on them. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

My very first 4x4 was a '75 F150 with 33" tires. I had wanted a Ford to start with because of the BIGFOOT craze. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
I rolled this truck and put on two more different bodies before selling it and later buying it back cheaper.

If you could talk to my dad, he will tell you the times he had heard me cuss and scream at this truck. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif I was always complaining about the Ford crap especially the wiring problems. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif It wasn't too often that I was taking a tool or hammer and beating the crap out of the truck. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

The biggest headache I get from dealing with the Ford crap is the number of different tranny and motor variations they used.
They have like 3 or 4 different bellhousing patterns and lord knows how many different families of motors to be classified as one group to another. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

My dad finally said, after I sold the F150, "no more Fords." /forums/images/icons/wink.gif He got me started with GM products, which he had been loyal with all his life. He had never had ONE Ford product and never will.

I guessed I should have listened to the old man in the first place. I quickly learned the GM vehicles had only ONE bellhousing pattern and TWO sizes of motors, BBC and SBC. My headaches went away! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

After I got rid of that F150, I got my first Chevy, an '80 K10 long bed. I never had another Ford after that. I did start "collecting" more and more GM trucks, along with my dad, and basically had a "mini-salvage yard" at my folks farm. This is where I did my "learning" about the GM trucks, etc.

It all boils down to the fact that Ford had to mess with their motors, tranny's, etc. during the years in order to "try and find the best combo" in order to stay on top of the competition. They never did learn the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" slang. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

Mr. Chevy4x4 you would be supprised how many superdutys there are around my house all with like 35-38's but your right they will go and watch people wheeling but thats it

Too much of pansies who are afraid to get down and dirty, right? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

right I wouldent be able to stand it it would be getting dirty O ya and they prob. dont have the engine to push the tires

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I know if I had an F350 I would not off road it.

It would just be a tow rig and I would rather have a chevy but new chevys make me sick when you lay under one it is like laying under my four wheeler and I sure as hell dont want to be pulling my blazer around with a TRX 300

and that Duramax does not even sound like a Diesel

the only thing I like on that truck is the 11.5 rear end

it is like if your dog takes a crap on the carpet you hit him you dont give him a bone

when GM came out with the thos damn IFS trucks in 88 and all thos people brouht them, it was like giveing GM a bone for craping on the carpet and with the HDs it is the same.
If people keep buying this crap they will keep messing up the carpet insted of makeing a real truck agine.

I am not trying to start a fight this is just how I feel /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

"for Chevrolet to ever be the market force it once was."???????????

Do you realize that GM sold almost as many trucks as Furd's TOTAL unit sales(cars and trucks) in the first quarter? I'll say it again, GM MUST be doing something right. Call me a band-wagoner, but I am going to support number 1. Y'all can go on supporting number 2 all you want, I'll go with the winner!

"We've been investigating purchase of a new pickup, and found something interesting - For the price of a pretty basic Silverado 1500, I can get a really nicely equipped F250 SD."

The old addage: "You get what you pay for!" comes to mind! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DRIVEN OVER A FORD (http://www.baloo.rockcrawler.com/images/baloo_211.jpg) /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

How does Ford get their sales figures? I always hear best selling this or highest selling model that. Is this because they are comparing to just Chevy and not GMC, or what.

They have always compared their numbers to just Chevy trucks and just GMC trucks...never both Chev and GMC combined.

Rene

I agree that my chevy's have been more reliable than fords I've owned, but come on, Why does everthing in the next model year have to look like a Pontiac Aztec? GM usually starts off with a clean body style and progressivley adds more plastic as the Model ages to "update" the look. Now they start off the cycle looking like rubbermaid rejects from hell. I heard that the GMC version of the burb isn't even going to have a two speed transfer case anymore ("professional grade" AAAARRRGHHHH!!! someone slip me a prozac!!

I rarely see new GM's on the road - the occasional S10 or Cavalier pops in view, but nothing like the number of F150s and Superdutys. Then again, AZ has always been a Ford-heavy state.

As for comparison of the two, GM is really trying to screw prospective buyers - of the two trucks we looked at, here's the basics:

Silverado 1500 "LS" ext cab SWB
Vortec 4300 V6
5 speed manual
Cloth seats/Carpet
trailer package
dealer added 17" rims
3.73 rear

Total as delivered: $23K and Change

-or-

F250 SD XLT ext cab shortbed
5.4 Triton V8
6 speed manual
HD suspension package
cloth seats/carpet
trailer package
OEM Alcoa rims
4.30 L/S rear

Total as delivered? 23K and change.

Each has their own unique pros and cons outside of the basics, but which is the more sound investment? To be completely honest, the new offerings from the big 3 all suck - I'm just looking at which will represent the best overall value, and GM just isn't up to the task. We need a truck that can work for a living, since we are in the process of opening a remodeling business as a sideline - we'd like a ½ ton, but the Fords are ugly and the GM's are too expensive, so a not-quite-as-ugly ¾ ton comes into play.

That's exactly the position I stood in when I made my last purchase.

2002 GMC SLT
5.3 Vortec
auto transmission
ext cab
trailer pkg
upgraded int
ect...anyway what I was looking at was 24.5K after haggling

2002 Dodge 2500
quad cab
24 Valve cummins
6 speed transmission
trailer tow
camper special
trailer mirrors
SLT package..after haggling was 27K

For 2500 bucks, I got a much better motor/transmission, 3/4 ton truck that will pull ANYTHING i've a mind to hook behind it. Worth it to me by a long shot.

It's not 4wd. But then again, I dont plan to wheel my tow rig. The only times I'll have it somewhere where the limited slip rearend won't take me, the blazer'll be on the trailer and I'll tow the tow rig in from there. No way I was going to pay an extra 4K to get something I might have used 5 times.

Oh yeah btw, 19 mpg unloaded and 14 pulling the blazer on a heavy equipment trailer!

HEI is good????
all racing ignitions seem to use the ford big cap

Dodge just bailed on the Dana axles, now trying American Axle, I think that is the 10bolt - 14bolt source

Ford also took the top customer service honors - the dealer gave me several financing options, took me to lunch, and flat told me that the truck I was looking at and driving had been having problems with the charging system, and told me to give him the word and an identical one would be ordered in whatever color I wanted and delivered within 30 days - with another $500 shaved off for my time.

GM offered me an extended warranty and told me my credit sucked.

Just goes to show that Furd is having a hard time trying to give them away. That is also why they are so much cheaper, they are losing a lot of the market share. GM is offering discounts but they are selling so many that they don't have to give them away. This is also another reason Furd lost 5.4 BILLION dollars last year. There is a reason the Furd trucks are cheaper!

What it goes to show is that GM could care less about the truck customer - Their Saturn division wants to maintain their share, and treats customers accordingly, do they not? Ford does the same - I went to buy a work truck and they treated me like I was buying a Lincoln. I went to Chevrolet and was treated like I was stealing a Geo - and they tried to tell me that their product was far superior to what I asked for. I wanted at minimum the 5.3 V8, and was INFORMED that the 4300 V6 was what I wanted - that is not a sign of quality, it's a sign of indifference towards the customer's needs. They knew their offering was not what I wanted, then lied to me and told me it was better. Tell me how the two trucks mentioned compare overall?

So you are going to blame GM for a bad experience at a dealership? GM is selling a lot more trucks than Ford so you can't say that GM isn't treating people right. I had a very good experience when I went and bought my 2002 2500HD. The dealership treated me very well and gave me exactly what I asked for. Go ahead and buy the 5.4 from Ford and when it is getting 12-14 MPG just keep reminding yourself how cheap the truck was. My cousin has a new 1/2 ton extended cab Ford with the 5.4 and the best he can get is 14 MPG. Before the 2500HD I had a 2000 1/2 ton extended cab Chevy with the 5.3. My truck had more power than his and I was getting between 17-19 MPG unloaded. I haven't talked to him a day that he hasn't complained about his truck. I am telling you, there IS a reason GM is selling more trucks than Ford.

I think your experience has alot to do with the dealership you went to. There are quite a few chevy dealerships here in Phx that I wouldn't step foot in. The main reason is the way they treat people, like yourself. I personally bought a new 02 crewcab hd 4x4 in Febuary without a single problem. I was in and out within 2 hours. I have no complaints at all with this truck. Plenty of power and lots of room. I have 7300 miles now with no service problems. Everybody has there own preference. I personally only like chevy. Even if a ford was 5k cheaper, I wouldn't consider it. And I know they make a good rig. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif But that new ford commercial does suck. Day nice a have.
David.

If I got this sort of treatment at only one dealership I'd pass it off on the dealership, but when I am treated that way at 4, it raises red flags.

As for fuel economy, I'm used to 460's and 454's - 14 mpg is damned near heaven, and it really hasn't been a concern in this process, since most of the use will be either short hops or towing a relatively heavy trailer - mileage will suck across the board.

As for GM selling more light trucks, I'm sure they do - counting Avalanches, S10's, Blazers, Tahoes, Suburbans, Trailblazers, Trackers, Envoys, Denalis, Bravadas, Sonomas, Hummers, and whatever I missed in addition to Silverados and Sierras - also consider that Dearborn only has 6 offerings, 8 if you count Navigators and Mountaineers.

I'm not saying that Ford is better than GM overall, but currently they certainly are kicking GM's butt in several categories, including chassis design in the heavier GVW's, powertrain options, customer service and price.

If I could get it, I'd like a GM truck - a 2500 with either a nice, simple Vortec 454 or a series 30 Detroit (oops, sold them to Daimler) with an NV4500 and H/D air conditioning. Trouble is that I can't get a diesel I particularly trust, or a gas engine that would serve my needs at a price I can afford.

Comparing my two examples, trailer capacity on the Chevy is 4100 lbs, the Ford is 9400 lbs. While obviously we can't compare ½ ton to a ¾ ton accurately, we can pretty much agree that the F250 is better suited to the task at hand across the board - especially where price is concerned. One can do twice as much work for the same price, and they obviously last well - You rarely see the new Silverados in fleet service capacities, but still regularly see older Fords alongside their newer brethren in commercial service. The big corporations would look elsewhere if they weren't cost-effective.

"I don't care about gas mileage" is a typical Ford fans response to Ford's inabality to produce a motor that produces good power and fuel consumption.

I paid $27000 for my truck and it is totally loaded with everything. I would love nothing more that to hook bumpers with an F250 and drag it areoung a parking lot. Ford used to have the upper hand on the diesel engines(mot anymore, Duramax is stronger) but Ford's gas motors SUCK! The V10 is one of the biggest jokes I have ever seen.

You don't see GM in fleet service? That is all the telephone and electric company here are using. I have a good friend that works for a logging company here in Alabama. They have a new policy that they will no longer buy anything from Ford because of their relations with the "greenies". Apparently that same thing is happening all across the nation and that is one reason Ford if losing market share.

In the quality ratings report that was just released Ford had several more problem per vehicle produced than did GM. Based on pure statistics how can you say Ford is making a better product? From everything you are telling me, it sounds like you want a GM and just don't want to pay for it. Face it, the yuppies that are buying them for daily drivers have driven the prices up along with the unions requiring floor sweepers to make at least $20 per hour.

You are comparing 1/2 to 3/4 ton, I don't see the logic. You can go buy a stripper Chevy 3/4 ton for the same price you are quoting on the Ford. The Chevy will have more power, will get better fuel mileage, and if the consumer ratings statistics are true you will have less problems with it.

Ford is definitely on a downhill slide. If Ford were doing anything right they wouldn't be losing market share, and their stock would be showing some improvement.

GM....The longest lasting, best selling, most reliable, best resale value truck on the planet!

Honestly - gas mileage is my last concern. I want something I can rely on to do the job, and do it well, at a price that I can afford. (as an aside, 460's stomped 454's butts in mileage, and 390's got better mileage estimates than 350's did in the middle 70's)

The Duramax is a nice engine, if you can afford it - and don't mind having to take it to the dealer for all but the most basic maintenance. As for the Tritons - you're right: They are a pathetic joke next to their predecessors, much as the 4.8 and 5.3 GM are. The legendary 350's 302's all 4 351's 454's 460's and the like are gone, replaced by "modern" engineering (read: unneccessary expense thanks to CAFE).

As for fleet service, in the intermountain West, Ford has always been strong, but totally dominated since 1988 - the year of IFS. The only companies that really buy GM are the ones that GM low bids - a few here and there, but about ¼ the number of F-250's out there. GM threw the screws to many of their biggest contracts too - the US Forest Service typically favored GM chassis for small fire engines and patrol trucks for years, until the IFS K3500's came out and were total nightmares. Ours spent more time at the dealer with front end problems than it did on the fireline, as did all the others in hot areas - it became a Dodge after 2 seasons. The mining companies kicked GM on their ear in the middle 70's due to fenders and floorboards rusting completely out in less than a year (highly acidic environment) - only Suburbans still make a decent appearance in that market, but the days of the stripped Suburban are long gone - the LS is as cheap as it gets. Stripped Expeditions and Excursions are available - where the hell is GM? At Starbucks planning the 4cyl FWD version of the Camaro? They used to offer a stripped Tahoe for law enforcement - now they try and put the "Impala" in it's place, knowing full well that cops don't really like front wheel drives, no matter how hot the V6 is. Same goes with ambulances - no truck chassis is available to build an ambo on - they do offer an approved van cutaway, but crews in van chassis rigs tend to complain, at great length /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

There's no denying Ford has alot of problem children - they always have, and always will. I said they make a better truck for the money - how can you deny that? Back to basics here, a V8 over a V6, a 10¼ Sterling over a 10 bolt, etc. Not to mention the ¾ ton over ½ ton for the same coin.

As for a Chevy ¾ ton over the Ford, I looked for a 2500 and the best I could do would be a single cab TOTALLY stripped 2500 (Not the HD) with the Vortec 6000, and the only 2 options being a CD player and Cruise Control - $25,787.

Simply put, GM is more interested in yuppie commuters and soccer moms than the lunchbox and gunrack crowd. If I could buy one of the real trucks from GM again, I'd be all over it - but I can't. The K5 is now a giant Isuzu Amigo, the Suburban is nothing but a status symbol, the Impala, Monte Carlo and Malibu are front drive econo-boxes. GM's marketing wizards failed us - the big picture shows it plain as day: rear seat air conditioning ducts and a handful of good ideas, like a ½ ton crewcab with a fullsized bed will undoubtedly sell more units than a pretty dated truck. The Super Duty and Excursion are nothing revolutionary, they are little more than a 1970's (or older) truck with a little modern convenience added. That's where my vision of their superiority comes from. I don't want rear air and auto defrost mirrors - I want an honest, tough truck: Not to say that I don't want some comforts like power windows and a decent stereo, because I do - but I want them within reason.

Jeff,

I am not trying to sound like a jerk, but I noticed in your earlier posts that you tried four seperate times to by a chevy, and then you come here and bad mouth them. Can you explain your reasoning behind this? It sounds as if you jumped on the ford bandwagon since that was the truck that fit in your budget. The 2002 I just bought is a crewcab 4x4 with all the goodies along with some extras like dual power seats, rear air, cd player, forged wheels and tow package and I paid $29,600 before tax and license, so the deals are out there. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Yeah, that really looks a Ford inspired distributor. (http://www.performancedistributors.com/forddui.htm) /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

The 2002 F-350 switched to a Dana 60 front from the half-ass D50. Also the Dodge 3/4 ton does not have a D60/D70, it's a D44/D60 unless they've changed very, very recently. The 1 ton has a D60/D80 I believe though.

I really wanted a Silverado due to the slightly larger cab dimensions - where I really lost my temper was the fact that the GM cost was so much higher against the Ford, for a less than comparable truck, and the dealers wouldn't even attempt to haggle enough to make the GM economically viable. I knew the chassis would be of lesser strength and quality, but I was willing to trade that off for a little extra room - or ALOT of extra room from a rear seat standpoint.

After dwelling on the subject for a couple of weeks, it gave me a severe irritation with GM's marketing practices and procedures. It also allowed me to consider the "get what you pay for" aspect - simple economics dictated purchase of a non-GM offering, atleast as far as new trucks are concerned.

This morning I investigated a GM that would serve my needs nicely, at a reasonable price. A 1995 6.5L K2500 ext cab - the transfer case and front end are unneccessary, but the price is right at $14,000 for a loaded Silverado with a Stahl box and only 46K miles - we'll see tomorrow if Yesterday's Chevrolet will be the proper choice /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

dont see your point.
DUI is hardly a HiPer ignition source. more a street rod place.
try this MSD race cap (http://www.msdignition.com/2000_3.htm)
hey even the top fuel guys use a ford based dist cap (http://www.msdpromag.com/p1.htm)

Whoa!!!

C'mon Pugs pull it togather man!

NASCAR motors are so far removed from normal production motors that its not even worth comparision . A cap is hardly the only major componet in an ignition system. The reason HEIs aren't used is because of the limited coil size and less cooling capacity because the coils aren't oil filled and are enclosed. While Ford decided to spread everything over God's green earth, the coil and the module remained seperate. Makes chaging igniton parts and solenoids easy when you've got to constantly change the damn things. The Ford STYLE cap is used because it works with a seperate coil and has a wide terminal spacing to reduce the chance of crossfire. Professional racers don't go down to the junkyard and pickup a Ford distributor or two to use at Daytona. Several teams probably are using engines built entirely from aftermarket manufacturers.

1st NASCAR sucks,
2nd if it is custom made why then would they copy a ford cap when they could just make whatever they want.
3rd race ignitions have "everything spread over God's green earth, the coil and the module remained seperate"

you seeing a pattern here?
HEI sucks, racing ignitions use the ford cap, JUST LIKE I POSTED.
HEI buries the module in the XXXXing distributor! that is stupid.
fords is on the outside easy to change, and easy to cool

I outta send you the module we took out of this 70's Ford truck if its still kicking around up at the shop. The damn thing would turn over, but wouldn't fire. Took a look over at the driver's fender and saw some kinda gooey crap running out of the module box. The module had crapped out and had gotten so hot the sealant on the back side had melted off.

Bias or not, both units will do there original intended street jobs just fine. When we get into bigger things, the original modules aren't even bothered with and MSD or Mallory ignition boxes are used. The motors in NASCAR borrow from stock designs, seriously upgraded, but stock inspired. Hence the term "Stock Car". Thats the whole idea behind that branch of racing, stock. The motors are far removed from production ones, yet use the stock design aspects along with a few upgrades. You get into Indy cars and such, then you've got custom made engines that were designed from the ground up for their application.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
1st NASCAR sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

With that eloquently stated argument of NASCAR "sucking", and NASCAR uses Ford stlye caps, does this now mean that Ford stlye caps now "suck"?

why are we suddenly talking about Nascar?
you brought that sanctioned body up, not I.
NASCAR chevs no longer use a motor that ever sat between a stock chev automobile framerails. nothing 'stock' about it.
same thing in NHRA proSTOCK, chevs motor has never been in any stock chev automobile.

sure would be nice to get a Ford Taurus that looked like the ones prowling around the road course the other day

Ok, here we go! Furd never put the NASCAR version v8 in any production either. NASCAR is letting Furd run a car that they have never even produced! There is no such thing as a 2 door taurus. Back in the 80's, when Chevy wanted to run the aero coup NASCAR forced them to produce production versions. Did they force Furd to do the same, NO the Furd boys cried enough about it that Nascar tet them slide. Kind of like every other rule NASCAR bends to make Furd competitive. Watch the busch series, the only furds that are competitive are the rousch cars that have loads of money poured into them. Other than those cars Chevy dominates.

Now on to the distributor thing: "if it were custom built"????? You don't think that the DUI Furd setup is a custom job??? Funny I don't remember furd producing that! There sure are a lot of people out there buying that setup for it to suck so bad! A stock HEI is much better than any stock ford ignition ever produced! With a little custom work they can be made to perform well all the way to 8K. If you love furd so much why don't you sell your GM and go hang out on some furd web site, insted of coming to our site and talking crap about GM!

Furd SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

<font color="green"> Hmmm, two buddies of mine have Dodge 3/4 ton 4x4s, one is a 97 with a 360, one is a '01 with the Cummins, and both have D60s in the front. The 1/2 ton Dodge has the 44, the 3/4 tons have all had the 60 since the new body style came out back in '93. </font color>

We could keep going back and forth with this all day and no one will win. What I'm saying about the motors is that are related to small block motors of yesterday. Only a fool would think they came in stock vehicles. I am saying that they share a very close design and several stock parts will work in those racing blocks. They primarly have heavier casting, stronger main caps, etc. I'll stop now, you can say anything you wish about me, and or, further your argument.

Moved by Request to NON 4x4.

fords nascar V8 is so close to a 351W with 351C heads.
they had to lose the canted valves because chev cryed,
a SB2B is nothing like any chev
chev started the body crying when the Tbird was dominant, now they all look like blobs

the DUI is a waste of time for streetrodders that like one wire hookup, a lot of people buy stupid things, clear taillight lens', huge wings for honda's
I would take a duraspark over HEI anyday
I do go to ford sites and talk crap about GMs there too.
but i need to come to chev sites to figure out how to fix GM junk

Back when I turned a wrench for a living, I used to love the Ford motor company. They put alot of money in my pocket. We seen more Ford motor company products in our bays for mecanical failure then any other make of vichiles !!!!!!!!! /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif Gotta make ya wonder what's up with that. The shop was in Omaha, Ne. So it's not like it was a small town with only a Ford dealership. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif Suprisingly, we hardly never seen Toyota's, The only Chevys we seen we're usely abused, or simple things like gaskets, fuel pumps, ... the light stuff. More Trannys, Rods, and electrical on the fords. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

If you wanta talk dollor value, I look at my own past. I grew up building hot rods. Dollor for dollor, I could build more HP and TORQUE with a Chevy then a Furd. Ofcorse I'm talking aftermarket preformance parts. But then again, why was everyone making preformance parts for the Chevys ??? Becouse they were the proven race winners !!!!!!! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif And ofcorse alot more popular then Furds. Remember, there is a reson why. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

If you want to get technical, the Ford NASCAR engine is based off a production GT-40 351W - it lived in quite a few production Fords over the years, most recently in the legendary 93-95 SVT Lightning, and an SVT Mustang, I believe. As another technicality, the Thunderbird was the LAST "proper" stock car - never seen a rear drive Lumina, Taurus, new Monte, etc.

And what is wrong with acknowledging that GM screws up? I've made fun of every Ford I've ever owned, they screw up too. I've owned GM's and none of them has been exactly the paragon of automotive engineering either. If I put my Bronco and Blazer side by side, both have distinct advantages, and distinct "what the hell were they thinking?s" - to the point that an honest comparison of their OEM construction and design would result in a draw. Example: 5.0 GM vs. 5.0 Ford - which has been the bane of their owners' existence over the years? Conversely, take a look at the TTB D44 - unexcelled for desert work, POS for everything else. Both take a contortionist to change the #8 plug, both have an electrician's nightmare for wiring, etc. The Bronco has a far beefier transmission (C6), but a weaker BW t-case that can't take advantage of the tranny and engine's extra strength. Of all advantages I've ever given a Ford though, I give credit to them for keeping the damned dimmer switch on the floor where it belongs as late as 91.

Another note on ignitions - in the early days of Duraspark ignition, some Broncos and F-Series came with a spare module from the factory, bolted to the inner fender right next to the working module - in the event of trouble you could just swap over with two simple plugs. Maybe HEI modules are better overall, but serviceability is nowhere near as easy.