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Old 04-27-2012, 07:42 AM
Posted in reply to jekquistk5's post starting "15 bucks to fill. What don't you like..."
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Originally Posted by jekquistk5 View Post
15 bucks to fill. What don't you like about that. That is the price I got last week from Airgas
Oh really? I thought it would be alot more than that. I will have to check with lake welding across the street from work and see what all it would take. Would be badazz if it can be switched over and filled for a good price.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:09 AM
Posted in reply to Deuling's post starting "Oh really? I thought it would be alot..."
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Folks, let me jump in here for a minute. I worked for years with CO2 tanks. And did some compressed air work and helped slightly with SCUBA.

Compressed air tanks are just that. Tanks filled with air that has had the hell squeezed out of it.
The pressure in a tank like that will stay pretty much the same with normal temp ranges.
It will increase some with higher temps, but not as much as CO2.

A CO2 tank on the other hand has liquid CO2 in it instead of just compressed gas.

And for any of you chemistry majors out there, I know that CO2 does not have a liquid phase at normal pressure/temp, but it behaves like a liquid in this case, so close enough.

With compressed air, as soon as you start releasing it, the pressure starts to drop. With CO2, the liquid starts to boil. Of course, the tank gets cold, but if it were maintained at a constant temp, then the pressure would stay the same until all the liquid had boiled away.
Since any liquid is the equivalent of a huge amount of gas, then CO2 would be the way to go.
Think about how much steam you can get out of a small amount of water.

And CO2 can have less pressure than compressed air. But that pressure changes more with temp.

The books say that at room temp, a CO2 tank should have around 800 psia. But when I was working with it, I often saw pressures above 1K.

This is a lot less than what you get in a SCUBA tank, but since its liquified, you will get a ton more volume.

Now for the bad news.
Don't know if you said, but if that tank is aluminum, then it needs to be eddy current tested after a certain number of fill ups due to micro stress cracks that can develop.
I don't know the reg, but a SCUBA refiller will require it after every certain number of refills.
They really hate explosions in their fill stations.

Steel tanks need to be hydrostatically tested after every so many fillups.

How many times has yours been filled??

Also, you might look again at that label that says "air only"
Might be a clue that the maker did not think it was a good idea to put something else in it.
CO2 and moisture forms Carbonic acid. So, you need to be sure that the tank is dry especially if its aluminum.

Remember I said that since it has a liquid in it that pressure in a CO2 tank changes more with temp?
The valve on a CO2 tank has a rupture disk built in. Its a piece of copper about the size of a penny that will blow out before the tank does if it gets too hot.
If you put any kind of valve on that tank, it needs something like that built in.

One other thing you have to watch out for.
A SCUBA tank being filed with air is just pumped into until the pressure reaches a certain point, or the weight of the tank reaches a certain point.

If you put in a little more, than the pressure just gets a little higher.
CO2 don't work that way.

Since you are, in effect, pouring in a liquid. The pressure will stay pretty much the same until the tank is completely full.
At which point, you have a bomb waiting to go off.
CO2 tanks are always filled by weight.

Liquid is not compressible. You have to have some space in the tank to allow for expansion with temp.
All CO2 tanks have the empty and full weight stamped on them, or some way to determine it.
Your SCUBA tank may not have.

Several years ago, we had a mix of aluminum and steel CO2 tanks. Our filler let a new guy fill a bunch of them.
He started on the steel tanks. Put one on the scales, zeroed it, and set it to trip at 20 pounds since that was the size tanks he was filling.

Then, after a few, he grabbed some aluminum tanks.
Did not rezero the scales.
Proceeded to fill them all the way to the top.

Thank God for rupture disks. The tanks started venting all over town. I went in to the store room and saw 4 spinning on the concrete at the same time.

We evacuated the place and told the company to come get their tanks.

As for your tank. If you get it tested, and make sure that any valve you use has a rupture disk, and that its dry, then it might be safe to use.

Personally I would not do it. But, I have seen tanks explode. And I am sure that there are thousands of folks using old SCUBA tanks and have had no problems.

I have watched people scratch their ears with loaded rifle barrels too........

CO2 runs at a lot lower pressure than SCUBA, which is why people use those tanks for CO2 after they are no longer rated for compressed air.

CO2 tanks will explode with less force than a filled SCUBA. But if it does so in your vehicle while you are in it, then its pretty much a moot point.

Its like the difference between being shot in the head by a .38 or a 12 gauge.

Its only a concern to the funeral makeup guy.

BTW, a compressed air tank can be run at any position. CO2 must be run with the valve up.

You DO NOT want liquid CO2 in your system or tire.

Here is an example of a SCUBA tank that failed in the trunk of a car. Do a search for other pics. There are plenty of them out there.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SCUBAexplosion.jpg (30.5 KB, 5 views)
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Some people say that humans became human when they tamed fire.
Or when they began to create tools instead of just improving on nature.
Wrong.
Humans became human when one climbed down out of the tree or walked out of the cave, picked up a long sharp stick, a big club, and went " Here Kitty Kitty......."

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Old 04-28-2012, 03:03 PM
Posted in reply to Fordum's post starting "Folks, let me jump in here for a..."
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CO2 is also a deadly gas that if stored inside your vehicle and say you valve leaks then your car can fill with CO2 and kill you if you aren't careful!!

BTW nitrogen is way better to use in tires anyway, why not use that? It's lighter and doesn't expand/contract as much as air with temperature changes. Plus nitrogren isn't a poisonous gas so if it leaks in your car, oh well, fix leak and refill tank.
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Old 04-28-2012, 04:31 PM
Posted in reply to Chevy305's post starting "CO2 is also a deadly gas that if stored..."
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Not too worried as it will be mounted in my what would be bed of my rig.
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No I don't drive a truck, I drive a K5 thats how I found this site 127 years ago when it wasn't high speed digital but telegraph tap up download n0ob...
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:17 PM
Posted in reply to Chevy305's post starting "CO2 is also a deadly gas that if stored..."
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CO2 is not poisonous. CO is. If CO2 were poisonous then we would all be dead since we have a large amount in our lungs all the time.
Plus inhaling the smell of a Coke would take you out.

Nitrogen has the same problem that compressed air does. Its just a compressed gas. CO2 turns into a liquid and a tank will hold many many times the volume that simple compressed gas will.
And at a lower pressure.

I don't do the airing down most folks here do, so I get by with a decent compressor. If I needed a tank, it would be CO2.
But, it would be a tank and system designed for CO2.
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Some people say that humans became human when they tamed fire.
Or when they began to create tools instead of just improving on nature.
Wrong.
Humans became human when one climbed down out of the tree or walked out of the cave, picked up a long sharp stick, a big club, and went " Here Kitty Kitty......."

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Old 04-28-2012, 08:45 PM
Posted in reply to Fordum's post starting "CO2 is not poisonous. CO is. If CO2..."
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I said that wrong, CO2 isn't poisonous but it displaces oxygen. That's how it puts fires out. I guess its my background in the marine industry where its used in enclosed spaces such as fixed systems for engine rooms that will kill you if you in the space when its discharged.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:26 PM
Posted in reply to Chevy305's post starting "I said that wrong, CO2 isn't poisonous..."
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Yep, it will definitely do that. I crawled into a cabinet to try to find a CO2 leak and found out it was worse than I thought.

My partner had to drag me out.
We opened the rest of the doors and put a fan in place before I went back in with the soapy water.
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Some people say that humans became human when they tamed fire.
Or when they began to create tools instead of just improving on nature.
Wrong.
Humans became human when one climbed down out of the tree or walked out of the cave, picked up a long sharp stick, a big club, and went " Here Kitty Kitty......."

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Old 04-28-2012, 10:41 PM
Posted in reply to Fordum's post starting "Yep, it will definitely do that. I..."
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Yep, it will definitely do that. I crawled into a cabinet to try to find a CO2 leak and found out it was worse than I thought.

My partner had to drag me out.
We opened the rest of the doors and put a fan in place before I went back in with the soapy water.
Oh come on... a little hypoxic brain injury is good for ya. Builds character
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... Think of it as therapy costs or "money I'm not spending on drugs or hookers"
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next time follow my rule... if 2 things dont go right dont wait for the third and get a beer.....
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:47 PM
Posted in reply to Z71paramedic's post starting "Oh come on... a little hypoxic brain..."
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Oh come on... a little hypoxic brain injury is good for ya. Builds character
Yeah, its a real shame. If you think I'm smart now, you should have known me before................
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Some people say that humans became human when they tamed fire.
Or when they began to create tools instead of just improving on nature.
Wrong.
Humans became human when one climbed down out of the tree or walked out of the cave, picked up a long sharp stick, a big club, and went " Here Kitty Kitty......."

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Old 04-28-2012, 10:52 PM
Posted in reply to Fordum's post starting "Yeah, its a real shame. If you think..."
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Yeah, its a real shame. If you think I'm smart now, you should have known me before................
unfathomable by all accounts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg72 View Post
... Think of it as therapy costs or "money I'm not spending on drugs or hookers"
-G

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next time follow my rule... if 2 things dont go right dont wait for the third and get a beer.....
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